why matchmaking without a visible rating is bad

Discussion in 'DotA Chat' started by Ranaki, Sep 8, 2012.

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  1. Ranaki

    Ranaki Well-Known Member

    Most of this applies to solo queue, more details about that later in the post:



    I always pick a carry when I want to win. No matter what my team looks like.
    You can check the One-Sided Matchmaking Game Log, where I post at least 1 stomp daily where I wanted to win, picked a carry, went mid and won it far too easily with an individual score of like 16 - 1 after 20 minutes.
    When a scrub tells me otherwise, they have to somehow prove me wrong that the method to stomp i am using should not be applied. I don't have time to check their stats in 1 minute lol. Often they lie and they suck ass anyway so sometimes I just mute them. For me games often feel like as I'm solo against the enemy team and my team is just stealing farm from me.
    I also buy my own wards and I buy my own courier if I have to.
    The matchmaking is terrible and here is why:

    When I play with 3 - 4 friends I know what my team is capable of and I pick something more secure to ensure a win, because I know what skill level they are in. If I play with friends that are good and want to win I pick that what is needed and fits in the team most perfectly. When I'm with friends that I want to teach, I often pick supports and try to let them carry, but I lose this way often. When I want to win with them after they complain like "we are never winning" I pick something like CK, Tinker, SS, Morph or something in that style and go mid and tell them what to do. Still works far better than solo matchmaking because they know that I know how to play.

    Imo, the entire problem with the matchmaking is that you lack stats and visible rating.
    People lie but stats don't. If I knew my team would consist of good players I would pick something that fits into the team and simply trust the ratings.
    Don't give me bullshit like "rating and stats don't tell you anything" erm, yes they do. Matchmaking is based around numbers, the only problem is that WE CAN'T FCKING SEE THEM. If we could, games would definatly improve.
    Sure, we would have a lot of elitists in dota2, but I'd rather play with some elitists that have a shit attitude and have a great satisfying game (even if i would lose) than playing with some casual noob that anyway has some sort of shit attitude that THINKS he is good and the game outcome is already decided after 20 minutes whenever I play a carry role or not. If I play a carry, 90% of the cases I will win. If I don't play a carry or a ganker, I win about 50% of the time because I simply can't do shit later at 50 minutes if the enemy team turns out to be decent while my team has like 4 typical russians in it.

    Why would I trust the ratings if they were visible?
    I would rather trust individual as much as detailed information about a player than nothing at all in dota. this is a team game after all, knowing which skill level your teammates are in is important.

    But matchmaking queues you with people of your skill level
    - If it would I wouldn't make this post.
    The matchmaking here forces a 50% of skill level. Someone on your team could play with a shitty friend that says he is "good". You never know and it's not worth the odds. Rather pick a hard carry, mute all and go mid. Works 90% of the time in these scrub games.

    If you keep on winning you get queued with better players
    - I tried that for a while. And it did not work.
    Also: In HoN for example I'd know when I reached a new bracket, here is just a guessing game. I can't fcking tell whenever my team is good by the picks they make because I don't know whenever they are 4 try-hard friends or actually are good. Asking them doesn't often help because I either get ignored or get a reply in russian and I already know I'm pretty much doomed because of communication issues.

    Conclusion:
    If you want a good matchmaking, copy the matchmaking of HoN and improve it.
    Visible stats are a MUST in dota2, especially if you solo queue.

    Matchmaking is supposed to improve your skills, but it doesn't because if I pick a hero I'm not good with without knowing what kind of people the players on my team are I have no idea whenever I'm going to be able to play the hero at it's normal potential or if it will end up with me being completely useless while waiting for someone to finish the game.

    A solution which favours everyone would be to have another matchmaking queue. One with stats and rating, and the other one without, like the current.

    I have to say though, Team matchmaking is mostly pretty accurate when I play with at least 3 other friends. even more accurate when I play with 4.
    Still, stats and ratings would improve that experience as well.

    I've brought this up a 1000 times and I still don't know why people are insisting that the current matchmaking is fine. It's not:
    - At least half of the community wants to have a visible rating according to this poll: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=32067&highlight=visible+rating
    WHY is this still ignored? That is just even more proof that we must have an alternative matchmaking system.
    Sure, it would separate the community, but the community is already very separated with opinions.
    Some mod once said "Sometimes what the community wants might not be best for the community"
    That is true, but if the community isn't satisfied the game will fail. And it seems like 54% of the community isn't satisfied. Doesn't valve care about HALF of dota2's players if not even more?!

    The current matchmaking might be good for new players and people with low confidence that can't handle being called "bad" and that is a good thing.
    So, that also supports my suggestion to add an alternative matchmaking with stats, so that people can chose what they like. I'd rather wait 5 minutes longer in the queue and have a match that i find good than how it currently is.

    /edit: I want to inform all of you that what I mean is that the current matchmaking ruins the games for the good and more experienced players.
    Why do I have to find 4 friends that are in the same skill level as me in order to play a CM game that is exciting when the same could be done in the solo matchmaking, like in HoN?


    I keep referring to HoN because it's the closest example of what dota2 should be and should not be like.
    HoN's matchmaking system is defiantly great for better players while the current matchmaking system in dota is more noob friendly.
    Which is why dota2 should have two different matchmaking systems.\

    >TLDR:
    Stats and ratings would improve matchmaking because: read the god damn post if you want to know!
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2012
  2. DaViller

    DaViller Well-Known Member

    Re: why matchmaking without a visible rating is ba

    yeah give us some sort of visible rating. every competetive sort of game (maybe short of shooters) has a rating system. If its good for street fighter and starcraft its good for dota as well
     
  3. sunnymarcell

    sunnymarcell Banned

    Re: why matchmaking without a visible rating is ba

    agree, but the answer is one word

    beta. valve will probably put time into this, there are bazillion and fuckallion of things that need to be added into the game.

    this would be really nice imo.
     
  4. Ranaki

    Ranaki Well-Known Member

    Re: why matchmaking without a visible rating is ba

    exactly, if you look at it from that aspect, a competitive game without a visible rating system or player ladder is a joke.
    It would be far more interesting to see new people in tournaments that were high up on the player ladder a while before they joined a good team than just having some random people joining.

    It would make people want to climb the player ladder, like in HoN, which would make everyone trying to win. In other words, it would create elitiests, but as I've said:

    I'd rather play with a bunch of elitists that try to be good than playing with casual players that are shit.


    Sadly, as it seems in the dev forums, this game will currently never have any visible rating system or stats. Which Is why I also did post this here in order to get people's attention and to encourage them to be more active in the dev forums so this game doesn't turn out shit.
    Not even a concede function, which is pretty important in pub games where you play with pure assholes imo.
     
  5. Cymen

    Cymen Moderator

    Re: why matchmaking without a visible rating is ba

    A visible rating will result in an even worse attitude.
    There are stats and there is a rating. There is no need for it to be visible and you gave quite a few reason in your OP why there SHOULDN'T be a rating. People will just look at your profile, say GG and leave. "I won't play with people <70% winrate" I can see it now.
    Also, I read some of your posts and they will not be looked at like that. As the OP says, you have to describe the match properly.

    Remember that there is a forum for this kind of feedback.
    I will keep this open since this thread has at least some effort put into it but I will close it if there is no proper discussion. I advise you to post this on the Dev-Forums.
     
  6. Sentry_ward

    Sentry_ward Banned

    Re: why matchmaking without a visible rating is ba

    I'm against it
    Matchmaking with a visible rating only generates elitism and a "I'm better than you" attitude
     
  7. DaViller

    DaViller Well-Known Member

    Re: why matchmaking without a visible rating is ba

    I didn´t read your whole post last time but i disagree on showing stats.

    Other then a rating stats passively promote a certain palystyle that isn´t 100% victory oriented. That is if you see your team falling behind a little bit a lot of players will consider the game lost and from then play to save theyr stats rather then a victory. Because if you lose you lose mmr and that sucks BUT if you manage to steal some kills or farm a lot while you should have been helping your team or buy unnessecary wards at least your stats will increase.

    This kind of behavior should never be encouraged.

    But a stat ladder is paramount imo EVERYONE VOTE ON THAT FUCKING POLL HE POSTED
    http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?...visible+rating
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2012
  8. Ranaki

    Ranaki Well-Known Member

    Re: why matchmaking without a visible rating is ba

    I'd rather play with elitists than playing with casual players. Already wrote that in my post.
    Elitists might have a bad attitude, but at least they often are far better players than those lame casual players.

    There are several ways to prevent what you've said: for example, in the loading screen all names should be hidden.
    But actually, you CAN already check up someones win ratio and leave. But nobody does leave, i try to check up as many peoples win ratio as possible before the game starts just to know a little bit about them.
    I do not leave though.

    It makes no sense at all not knowing anything about your teammates.

    Also it feels like Valve ignores such sort of opinions which is why I also post it here because i want people to be more active about this kind of stuff in the dev forums.
    Most people are like "it's just in beta" but if they don't state their opinions, the game will stay as it is now.


    I'd rather have elitism with a "I'm better than you" attitude than having the current system.


    A reply for both of you guys' posts:
    I'd rather play with elitists that have a bad attitude but provide a really good match than playing with casual players that still have a bad attitude and don't even deliver an exciting match.
    You are a complete moron if you say that the current matchmaking at least provides a good attitude between players which is pretty much what you both have said.



    While I would personally prefer stats, I support the idea of not having stats for the reasons you have said.

    But a rating system is still VERY VERY important.
     
  9. Sentry_ward

    Sentry_ward Banned

    Re: why matchmaking without a visible rating is ba

    I'd not
    I prefer to lose an enjoyable game than to win a game where everyone is an asshole
     
  10. bury

    bury Well-Known Member

    Re: why matchmaking without a visible rating is ba

    Well, if we still can remember Dota-League, there never was something like "I'm btter than you" attitude. Especially for me. played sig for a long time and never saw one guy with this attitude. btw. the pointsystem works also fine.

    €: I'd rather to have a split between serious buisness and funny/custom games.
     
  11. DaViller

    DaViller Well-Known Member

    Re: why matchmaking without a visible rating is ba

    Im sorry but i disagree on the rating part. Stats do change a game to the worse but a rating instills a certain amount of dedication to win in players wich is desireable. I am only talking about rating here not visible stats.
    At worst it will cause some elitism in higher ranking players but just look at how it is now.

    The game is full of people who dont give a rats ass about winning the game and auto pick a carry or random every time.

    Also if a person who is on a high ranking tells a lower level player something like" hay man you should get a force staff and some wards" the lower level player is less likely to feel insulted. Because people hate being lectured in general but even more from someone who isn´t proven to be better then tem.

    THE POLL NEEDS YOU
    http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?...visible+rating
     
  12. Sentry_ward

    Sentry_ward Banned

    Re: why matchmaking without a visible rating is ba

    we are not talking about dota-league, we are talking about dota 2, which has 80k users online every day and is still in closed beta
     
  13. zwegat85

    zwegat85 Well-Known Member

    Re: why matchmaking without a visible rating is ba

    That explains a lot to me.
     
  14. Millennium

    Millennium Well-Known Member

    Re: why matchmaking without a visible rating is ba

    Because this game definitely needs more seperation of classes. Caste system was demolished for a good reason, I don't see why we should bring it back.

    ps: If this sort of rating was added to the game, I still wouldn't want to have you on my team even if you had 90% win rate. I prefer those ''lame casuals'' over people who think they wrote the book of dota and have right to do whatever the fuck they want.

    I am a casual, I play this game for fun, and I have my fun with mildly experienced players (I do hate playing with totally clueless people as well, don't get me wrong), not ultimate tryhards doing whatever they want and ordering everyone on my team as if someone made him the leader.
     
  15. burningsera

    burningsera Well-Known Member

    Re: why matchmaking without a visible rating is ba

    Ill make a quick post:

    1.Go try HoN (cancerous mm people call out who should carry etc)
    2.108 heroes in total. How do you define skill level on 108 heroes. Not even dendi can play all heroes at the very very very high skilled level. No one can, because it is a fcking TEAM GAME.
    3.Visible stats = end of good games. People will be whoring kills like mad to buff their k/d.

    MM is broken for sure but i dont think there is anyway to fix it but they could improve it as much as possible. In the end of the day mm will still force 50% w/l rate on you so.....

    Anyhow, solution has absolutely nothing to do with making stat visible, actually, you can check that freely at dotabuff.com.
     
  16. sunnymarcell

    sunnymarcell Banned

    Re: why matchmaking without a visible rating is ba

    so i should check game stats outside the game? makes much sense for me...
     
  17. Ranaki

    Ranaki Well-Known Member

    Re: why matchmaking without a visible rating is ba

    So you are implying that currently there are no assholes in the game because there is no rating?
    - You just proved yourself a moron.

    Currently, there are no good games and a bad attitude between players.
    A rating would provide: a bad attiude but GOOD games, which is what I play dota for.


    Two words:

    Seperate Matchmaking

    With an alternative matchmaking, everyone (at least almost everyone) would be satisfied.

    But! in HoN I have better matches than in dota2 because the people listen to the one with most rating.

    I found the matchmaking system in HoN bad, until I played dota2.

    Again: it makes no sense not knowing anything about your teammates in dota.

    also, what sunnymarcell said.
     
  18. Ranaki

    Ranaki Well-Known Member

    Re: why matchmaking without a visible rating is ba

    It works though.
    If you would read my entire post you would know why I do that though.

    I consider myself as a good player, letting other people carry is most of the time a loss for me, which i also said in that post.
     
  19. Millennium

    Millennium Well-Known Member

    Re: why matchmaking without a visible rating is ba

    Do you want Valve to exclusively release DOTA 2: Ranaki Edition for you as well? So far you have only accomplished giving people here an image of a horrendously selfish person.

    The reason why you play dota is not necessarily the reason everyone else should play.
     
  20. zwegat85

    zwegat85 Well-Known Member

    Re: why matchmaking without a visible rating is ba

    How do you define good games?

    Just because you think so, does everybody else think so?

    Generalize more pls.
     
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