Vladimir still worth it on AM?

Discussion in 'Game Strategy' started by Lmaotan, Jul 28, 2016.

  1. Lmaotan

    Lmaotan Well-Known Member

    before the abyssal/vanguard changes, typically AM goes
    Treads -> fury -> vlads -> manta -> abyssal/butter/bkb/heart

    is it possible that we replace vlads with vanguard instead? since we eventually will need it in abyssal blade.
     
  2. Anti-Xenophobe

    Anti-Xenophobe Well-Known Member

    Vanguard is only worth it if you get it before Battlefury
    If you go PMS into Battlefury, build Vlad's
     
  3. Clam

    Clam Well-Known Member

    Vlads has its place. If you are free farming and don't need to help your team out vlads gives you the fastest farming and keeps you fully topped up on HP and mana. If you want the crazy 1k gpm games where you have 400 cs at 30 minutes and you just win the game off the weight of your farm vlads is still the best option.

    http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2524917693

    This game I got BF at 12 minutes and went straight for vlads, very predictably I ended up with a massive networth advantage and there was nothing their 6k mid timber could do.

    http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2533409702

    Compare with this game where I went vanguard after BF, my farm is much lower despite similar BF timing (13 minutes), although I was able to contribute much more to fights to keep their 6.5k Sven down.
     
  4. matrice

    matrice Well-Known Member

    go headress if you need extra reg and don't want to buy vanguard early, but just ditch vlad most of the time. there's too few scenario in which it is really worth it.

    Ofc it's less all in on the defense than vanguard, but its quite fast a dead item, that just slow down your manta.

    You'll get your manta a bit slower with vanguard than with vlad, but at least vanguard doesn't slow your game after the manta, since you'll make it anyway for abyssal
     
  5. lucasho2312

    lucasho2312 Well-Known Member

    People still get it because of the 'infinite regen' but I don't buy the bullshit.

    Since when does AM has regen problem? How exactly do you benefit from the lifesteal and damage aura when ur rightclick at the time is shit? How can you afford to pay 2275g for 4 armor and 2 stats while you need to pick up Fury asap? How does Manta illu benefit from Vlad? How can you get rid of Vlad without losing your gold?

    In laning, stout blocks way more dmg than RoP. At 10 min, Vanguard blocks way more dmg than 4 armor. At 25 min, Vanguard blocks way more dmg for illu than 4 armor and 2 stats. Show me one single reason to buy Vlad pls. And yet, it costs more than Vanguard because the aura looks beautiful.

    What Vlad does help is that it helps you die even before you can blink cuz ur hp is shit so you can get to base. Here you go, 'infinite regen' = fountain.
     
  6. BornFromAGrave

    BornFromAGrave Well-Known Member

    ^
    I barely agree with you but this time you are right. When i saw the chnagelog from AB i thought "ohh shit now these idiots got a reason to get vanguard on AM"... and now we got a thread like this. I would rather see a topic like "Vanguard or Manta first on AM?". Never was a fan ov Vlads anyway. Perse is pretty much all you need early to sustain. Now you can even add a second RoH for Vanguard.
     
  7. IHateLeavers

    IHateLeavers Well-Known Member

    It helps a lot in early-mid game team fights and when you're pushing enemy Towers needs to do more hits on your creeps before they go down, so you can push a bit better.

    Imo, you skip vlads only if you're way ahead and you got enough gold to rush Manta after BF.
     
  8. IHateLeavers

    IHateLeavers Well-Known Member

    It helps a lot in early-mid game team fights and when you're pushing enemy Towers needs to do more hits on your creeps before they go down, so you can push a bit better.

    Imo, you skip vlads only if you're way ahead and you got enough gold to rush Manta after BF.
     
  9. BornFromAGrave

    BornFromAGrave Well-Known Member

    AM is not an early-midgame teamfighter...
     
  10. IHateLeavers

    IHateLeavers Well-Known Member

    AM can do just fine early game as long as you dont go full retard.
     
  11. SQN

    SQN Well-Known Member

    Vlads give you lots of dps and makes you FAR BETTER at manfighting and pushing. Not to mention you are always up to 100% hp. The only time that vanguard outclasses vlads is if your team RELIES on you in early game. But still, picking antimage even though you know you will be pressured in early game is not a wise choice.

    So; Vlads>Vanguard almost anytime.

    PS: Btw, You should get vlads after Fury and Yasha. At least you should have fury in your inventory before you get it. The reason why you should aim yasha in the first place is it speeds up your farming amazingly. Theres a few conditions that buying vlads first may be better than opposite. One of them is having stacked ancients, in that position vlads outclasses yasha no matter what. Other conditions depend on the game.
     
  12. stereox

    stereox Well-Known Member

    PT + Vanguard and you can come online this time
    And then Manta Abyssal.
     
  13. BornFromAGrave

    BornFromAGrave Well-Known Member

    Come on. Are you telling me now that back when Vlad > Vanguard ppl went for Vanguard and now when Vengaurd > Vlad because of dmgblock on illusions and for AB you want Vlads?
     
  14. AriStar~

    AriStar~ Well-Known Member

    I don't think vlads is that good anymore.
     
  15. Xarias

    Xarias Active Member

    There is like no reason to get Vlads anymore, when you need Vanguard for Abyssal after manta anyway.
     
  16. GeneralH

    GeneralH Well-Known Member

    do you want to split push all the time? do you want to fight early vs physical damage, preferably as 5 man? are there any heroes who dont build lifesteal but right click on your team? do you want to fight early vs magical/pure/multiple small sources of damage? an even split of these things and i think vg is better. can you potentially do these things fairly well? do you NEED to? will it give you a hefty advantage? at what time? when will your allies peak? do you want to take ancients that are being stacked early? what will late/early/mid game look like? the regen point i think doesn't matter at all because they both offer it. overall i think vg edges out vlads, but not always.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
  17. WuzuIII

    WuzuIII Well-Known Member

    If you freefarm and dont go vanguard before bfury (dont think its that good unless you face beastmaster/void/hero that gets infiniely more kill potential on you if you dont have vanguard), then vlads is not too bad. Helps you roshing and clearing ancient stacks out of all things and the aura is always good. The additional mana sustain is nice.

    If you get pressured and go vanguard first (you should do it then), then you are probably that far behind that you dont want a vlads aswell and go straight bf-> manta
     
  18. Blarrg

    Blarrg Well-Known Member

    Vanguard is far better in most games nowadays. Every decent lineup has the ability to pressure and kill an AM that goes a greedy Vlad/Bfury build. Sure, you farm slightly slower than Vanguard, but you can also participate in early fights relatively safely, and you become near ungankable against most lineups.
     
  19. mrfokker

    mrfokker Well-Known Member

    Vanguard helps you create a gold differential by being able to survive more ganks.
     
  20. darewin

    darewin Well-Known Member

    Just tank the tower with your VG and none of your creeps will go down. With VG, t1 towers barely do any damage to AM.