TI6 proves MMR is worthless in competitive

Discussion in 'Competitive Chat' started by Animus2280, Aug 18, 2016.

  1. Clam

    Clam Well-Known Member

    Jimmy was 7k in NA and tilted/threw games down to 5.9k in SEA server, which is known to be a harder server to have high mmr on. Not to mention he was playing position 5 which is the least mechanically challenging role and the least important to have a high mmr mechanically skilled player on. Kuku is 7.3k and Eyyou and Raven are both 6.9k. Bit ridiculous to point to one upset as showing that high mmr is meaningless when all the other players on TNC are high mmr.
     
  2. afriend.

    afriend. Well-Known Member

    Where can I find discussions on that??? Seems to me like everyone else has an easier time on EU and NA servers from what I can observe from playing there occasionally, watching ingame and replays (way less trolls etc.) but on forums everyone seems to think mmr applies cross region (which some knows it does not).

    Having played on AUS server (and occasional US) for a few years and now in SEA server, its a massively different experience.
     
  3. Hyperion1O1

    Hyperion1O1 Well-Known Member

    Technically 5k since he's 5998
     
  4. enrico.swagolo

    enrico.swagolo Well-Known Member

    There isn't much difference between carries among relevant mmr brackets in terms of mechanical skill: anyone can get every last-hit when the safelane is not contested and their team is creating lots of space for them. And when you are a farmed carry, then it's only your decision-making and shot-calling to make a difference. That's why you see even top carry players not do amazingly well when they are contested.

    Being support take a lot more understanding of the game to make do with little resources and be relevant at all stages no matter how poorly carries do. Unfortunately, even great supports can't carry bad teams. That's why even ppd calibrated at 3.7k on a smurf, and isn't Kuroky like 5k?

    But yeah, competitive is a completely different universe, and not just in DotA.
     
  5. Kris

    Kris Moderator

    That's how we define MMR in these parts.
     
  6. Animus2280

    Animus2280 Well-Known Member

    Yes, I have to win TI to make an argument.

    You don't have the privilege of making snarky comments until your intelligence is anywhere close to mine. I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

    True, but Demon is a shadow of his former self. Great dota 1 player, mediocre dota 2 player compared to pros. Slightly better than me but that's not saying much since I'm bad at dota.

    Just to give you an idea, ixmike88 (not known for being "skilled"...) is 7k MMR and has failed to join anything other than tier 4 teams, except that one time he played with Bulba et al. ROFL

    If your theory were true, they wouldn't have gotten 3-1 wiped. DC should have taken the last game and evened up the score but failed to, so Wings was at least moderately superior in terms of team skill.

    Anyone remember Arrow Gaming? They had the top pubstars in SEA, but sucked ass at TI 2014.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2016
  7. Mr. BoB

    Mr. BoB Well-Known Member

    Yep, when it comes to decision making as a carry in different mmr brackets its pretty much:

    1K low IQ troglodyte
    2K immature cretin
    3K kid
    4k irresponsible teen
    5k young man
    6k patient adult
    7k experienced old man
    8k village elder
    9k you need a new hobby bro
     
  8. JJE92

    JJE92 Moderator

    Yes, MMR is relevant, because you need a certain amount of technical skill to be able to play well enough for the competitive scene.
    No, MMR isn't everything. Team synergy and being able to deal with teammates over prolonged periods is very important in competitive play, but that is much less reflected in solo matchmaking, where you often play less coordinated with changing teammates.

    That's basically the same in all team sports or team games. Individual skill is important, but in the end the better team wins, not necessarily the team with better individual players.
     
  9. Mr. BoB

    Mr. BoB Well-Known Member

    I suddenly remember 2013 DK:
    DK.Mushi
    DK.iceiceice
    DK.Burning
    DK.LaNm
    Dk.X!!

    Who knew that a team with such a lineup would fuck up so hard.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
  10. limelyte

    limelyte Member

    MMR is way more than mechanical performance. Decision making has a lot to do with it once you get to a certain level in MMR. Miracle is known for his quick execution/tactical decision making more so than his mechanical skill, which is why it was mindblowing that his decision making was so off on Ember when playing against TNC, and this is where "5%" MMR basically lost you the game or ideally, this is where you were supposed to win the game; Miracle's execution wasn't up to par. All in all, TNC made the better plays and team fight engagements, and this is where 5% mmr doesn't matter. MMR can't predict that your opponent(TNC) is wrapping around the whole map just to flank you for a smoke gank.

    Of course drafting and team work matters more than what a single player can do in a team game. If you don't get your team mates the right heroes and call the right plays, obviously you will most likely lose the game, but 5% is hyperbole especially when you're talking about players Miracle, W33Ha, Rtz; guys who can solo kill top tier players in lane even with disadvantages and no help, and they can win you games even when you do shit drafts and call shit plays.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2016
  11. Eli_Green

    Eli_Green Well-Known Member

    There is a thing as too much talent; egos clashing when too many big names are on a team is often the downfall of all-star teams.
     
  12. RadioCity

    RadioCity Well-Known Member

    10k EU 5k SEA
     
  13. Hyperion1O1

    Hyperion1O1 Well-Known Member

    >no Chinese scrimmed with them
    >strats got leaked by being video taped
    >tilted further after they thought that EG's Ench Ursa dual jungle came from them (see point before this)
    >LanM nauseating and needed medical attention during TI4
    >still 4th place
     
  14. Trew

    Trew Well-Known Member

    How did TI6 prove that MMR is worthless?
    I would argue the opposite. The trend is clear that the higher mmr your team has, the better placement you'll get on average within your region.
    Just to put it in perspective:
    DC (39k) > coL (35k)
    Wings (37k) > VGR (36k)
    Fnatic (35k) > MVP (38k) > TNC (34k) > Execration (35k)
    Liquid (38k) > Navi (36k)
    The trend is clear. Higher MMR = Higher placement.
     
  15. r0xo

    r0xo Well-Known Member

    Man do you even watch pro games?

    There is no luck in being great at strategic choices and great teamfight coordination. And that is what wins games. Sure there are things like having the bad luck to walk into a 4 man pack just as you and two teammates are going up the hill for a smoke gank, you can't help that. And it can make a big impact. But the vast majority of games aren't won by rng or luck. They are won by decision making and just stomping team fights. The difference between OG pre TI and at TI is that they just went from great at fights to meh.
     
  16. Animus2280

    Animus2280 Well-Known Member

    I'm surprised complexity even managed to get into TI with swindlezz
     
  17. Clam

    Clam Well-Known Member

    Swindlez is a terrible player but you'd have to be deluded if you don't think he has any drafting/leadership skills. The fact that he got Complexity to TI5 despite playing mid is honestly mindboggling.
     
  18. Animus2280

    Animus2280 Well-Known Member

    Yea thats all he has going for him tbh, kind of like how BananaShitJamma can only play 1 role.
     
  19. YouAreDead

    YouAreDead Well-Known Member

    The creating space role :cat:
     
  20. r0xo

    r0xo Well-Known Member

    Yeah that is true. As much as I dislike the guy I do respect his determination and leadership skills.