Suggestions forum discussion: Filtering system

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Jenova-, Mar 15, 2011.

  1. Jenova-

    Jenova- Moderator

    This is a thread for discussing how should the filtering of the proposed suggestions should be handled.

    I will ask you to please stay on topic. If there are other aspects of the suggestions forum that you believe should be discussed as well, feel free to PM me and I will share the idea.

    Also, let us try to focus on a single rail of discussion, so the thread doesn't get unnecessarily long and daunting for new users wanting to join the discussion.

    Last but not least, it would be convenient if we refrain from bringing up ideas consistently overruled in the past without proposing significant changes to them (for example: polls).

    Now, let the discussion begin!
     
  2. coolake

    coolake Well-Known Member

    Most players only bother looking at the suggestions with the highest amount of replies and views. They also searching for player names which are known to the community. This drowns out the suggestions of players who are not well-known.

    Name all members Anonymous. Remove their signatures and avatars, Take away the reply count and view count from the threads in the forums thread listing. This at least gives all the least-known members a chance to get views and feedback on their suggestions.

    Create a private forum where only the most highest rated suggestions go to. Add a T-up and T-down poll system which does not show to the members, but are given by members. They also have to give a reason. Only the forum staff can see the private poll and can choose the T-ups and T-downs to be implemented into the poll, which they have to make sure the T-up or T-down has a good reason.

    If the poll's T-up goes 30 (or whatever number) points over the T-down, it gets implemented into the private forum where Icefrog/forum staff discuss whether to implement it or not. A copy of the suggestion thread stays in the public forum to be further discussed.

    I know you said no polls, but I thought maybe you haven't tried a private poll yet. That's the only thing I can think of to be a filtering system.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2011
  3. Captain Planet

    Captain Planet Moderator

    ^unfortunately that's pretty similar to the system DA had. The issue with using polls is that they are easily abusable. Members can promise to push support for someone else's suggestion in return for support of another suggestion and the whole thing can become corrupt (potentially). I don't think it would get to the stage where it WOULD be totally corrupt, but I think using polls further polarises the differences between suggestions because, not only would some threads have lots of posts, but some threads would ALSO have lots of votes, meaning EVEN MORE traffic goes to those threads and not to other threads.

    I think the only solution to this is for IceFrog to actively browse the suggestions forum himself regularly to see what's hot, what's not, what's good and what's bad for himself. Instead of just implementing a heap of visual suggestions and zip all content suggestions, he should pay some serious attention to "Other" (in particular) and "Heroes" and the rest after those because there are some great suggestions out there.
     
  4. coolake

    coolake Well-Known Member

    What I suggested in that post is for every single member in the suggestion forum to be anonymous, which means that they cannot give eachother support. You could also add a disciplinary system that works by disallowing the members to post account information in the suggestion forum.

    I suggested this to stop members from judging the suggestion in the thread listing by the number of posts and replies shown. This at least influences players to check any suggestion shown on the thread listing.

    Also, I suggested for the poll to be unseen by members. They could only provide T-ups or T-downs, and give reasons for them. Only the forum staff would be able to add those T-ups or T-downs to the poll, and they would have to make sure the member provided a good reason. Once again, the poll cannot be seen by members, only forum staff can see it.
     
  5. Unan1mous

    Unan1mous Well-Known Member

    E: Whoops wrong thread my bad.

    Uh, but I might as well say something. Create a group of lets say 20~ active, reliable, and unbiased members and assign them to moderate suggestions that are popular amoung the forumers or something along the lines of that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2011
  6. L-60

    L-60 Well-Known Member

    Make a Spotlight to the top 3 threads on each. (like the one in comics, guides, video and fan art.)
     
  7. Mazil

    Mazil Well-Known Member

    I'll just post a quick idea here for the time being. If, and is stress IF this could be done, it might be good to have a "guaranteed read system". You put your name on the list, and a staff member WILL read and review your suggestion for you.

    That requires a lot of manpower, sure, but it means no suggestion is left in the dark. Every person has the chance to get their ideas noticed by someone who can actually do something about it. Everything gets discussed and hidden potential can be brought out.

    At the very least, I would say that the filtering system needs some kind of staff interaction. Until I read about an autonomous and staff free setup that I can picture even remotely working... I will advocate for staff interaction.

    Think about it, if you want in-depth discussion of ideas, and still want to be fair to anyone who wants a turn at suggesting something... Then there's no way about it other than sheer manpower. Sure, you can get rid of some threads (like poor formatting, joke suggestions, you know the ones...) but automated systems (little staff interaction) will most likely fall down.

    PS: the context of that post was mostly pertaining to hero suggestions, because that's what I read mostly.
     
  8. E02K

    E02K Well-Known Member

    Don't u think that it would be better if it will get T-ups from PPL , and after he gets T-ups it will be reviewed
     
  9. Fate Trap

    Fate Trap Well-Known Member

    I kinda think something like this should be here. Instead of bringing up good ones IMO we should delete the bad ones. So these group of people would delete/close a bad one by vote like more than 80%
     
  10. IplayRandom

    IplayRandom Well-Known Member

    I'd hate to be the hater ... but all of this will be pointless if whoever's responsible for adding stuff in the game doesnt give us a sign that they actually care about this forum.
     
  11. kitchen

    kitchen Well-Known Member

    Plenty of suggestions have been added from these forums. Arcane boots is a big one. Tons of visuals. If you're talking about heroes, sure it's a lot fewer (2 skills) but it's still something. If that's not a sign then what is?

    Anyway filtering suggestions was the biggest question in the last thread. I still don't have an answer but I'll say that a vote/poll type of thing, or a rubric, or anything like that is NOT the way to go.

    I think limiting the amount of threads is a start. What we need is a mod with an iron fist who isn't above just axing bad threads left and right.
     
  12. Mazil

    Mazil Well-Known Member

    If you want to restrict suggestion flow, you will need the iron-fist mods (lots, IMO), and then you also need to put a cap on the amount of threads a user can make in a month, say. The un-formatted and downright awful threads are easy to remove, but as soon as you get any sort of quality, there needs to be some other sorting mechanisms.

    Perhaps you even need a rotation time? Old suggestions are phased out and then closed. If discussion reaches a critical point for a suggestion, and then dies out, perhaps the thread can just be closed? Perhaps threads can have a timed discussion. Every month (or 2, whatever), everyone's submissions are collected, and they are the only threads open for discussion in that month?

    (sorry if something like that was on DA, I never saw that system)

    ^ Don't forget soul ring too!
     
  13. Captain Planet

    Captain Planet Moderator

    ..
     
  14. kitchen

    kitchen Well-Known Member

    I don't like the sound of that at all. Shouldn't we just take the comments for what they are, rather than who they're coming from? Elitism like that isn't good for discussion, that's for sure. If a person can't back up their thoughts well, they don't deserve their "elite" status and conversely if a person makes a good point it shouldn't matter how lowly they're looked upon.
     
  15. Fire525

    Fire525 Well-Known Member

    I'm with Kitchen on that to be honest. I think that the upsides of making posting anonymous would far outweigh the negatives. People will pay more attention to better known person than a new person, even if the new guy makes better points than the veteran.

    I suppose another possible plus of anonymity is that it may discourage people from making suggestions for the sake of making suggestions, which could help stop the bad/poorly formatted suggestion problem.

    I'm against this, as in my opinion no amount of time is too long for a suggestion to be discussed. If it was say two months, it could easily take that long for proper discussion to build up, and once it has it would quickly fall to the bottom due to it being closed.

    The voting system is a possible option, as long as it is kept strictly hidden. It could be a good way to bring the good suggestions to Icefrog's notice, while also removing the bad suggestions from the forums.
     
  16. LysanderXonora

    LysanderXonora Well-Known Member

    ^Yes I agree that having Icefrog take a walk thru the hero suggestions would be a good idea. But we have to make it easier for him. We need to control the forum's postage.

    This breeds corruption. It already happens at HS (hero suggestion). People keep giving half assed reviews like 'Oh nice concept T-up' (when the hero obviously sucks) and then go on to say 'Oh review mine too'

    This is bullshit. Seriously.


    ^I 100% support this. Mods should be ax-ing those stupid threads that lack formatting or clear thought processes. Alot of people just copy skills from the ladder/dota and then change the names, buff the effects and call it their hero.

    The worst part is that they costantly stack bumps on their lousy heroes asking "Why isn't anyone giving reviews etcetc." or going to other threads to give stupid one liners in hope of a 'review exhange so to speak.'

    This ass kissing will lead to the rise of stupid hero suggestions and bumping of troll threads. (eg. bumping a hero that has already been discussed completely just for the sake of getting more reviews and pseudo t-ups.)

    I also think that hero suggestions especially, should be like how guides are done. A hero would be sorted based on its roles (carry, nuke, support etc.) and during the draft stages, the commuity can give their feed back, help with the english (descriptions, hero intro, bg story etc), the stats of the heroes, the effects/numbers on the abilities etc. When it is done, the heroes will then be reviewed STRICTLY by mods. These heroes would then be sent/listed on the home page for IF and public viewing. Heroes suggested in the past will be asked to be redrafted or redrafted automatically if this is implemented of course.

    This makes hero suggestions look less like a joke and actually allow good suggestions shine. Because I cannot blame icefrog for not wanting to sort through pages of shit on page 1 and 2 on HS.


    /wall of text.
     
  17. God of Death

    God of Death Well-Known Member

    Have an official review system with not a poll but a rating for the item from 1 to 10 just like with guides.
     
  18. Mazil

    Mazil Well-Known Member

    I already suggested something like that and was told that's pretty much how suggestions at DA worked. I think there needs to be a different framework, but I respect the idea (ofcourse I would, I thought it was good enough to suggest too)

    Okay, I'll drop the idea, but just so you know, I didn't mean "every thread open for 2 months ... no exceptions". I was kinda trying to say that every thread will reach the height of discussion, and then kinda drop off. Like, go look at Thebis-Ra or Verus Consilium. Yeah, they had LOONG periods of discussion, and LOTS of improvement. But I wouldn't rate them as very active threads right NOW...

    I was just trying to say, if a suggestion sticks around for a long time and nothing from it gets into dota, perhaps you can lock those threads so the OP's don't try and make silly revival attempts.
     
  19. The Observer

    The Observer Banned

    Filtering system ok...

    Filtering system should work like this.

    Put three divisions, one for approved, one for under process and one under pending.

    The ones under discussion would be the topics with 10 pages below, ones above would be ones at approved.

    One under pendings would be the topics with, from the start, have positive remarks, so it really should have a poll for topics. Maybe at 5-8 pages it has a standing of 75% t-up or above but has not reached 10 pages yet.

    Approved topics are topics with 10+ pages, with at least a running discussion, which means it's greatly talked about, or should I say, a good suggestion(even with the varying answers).

    Therefore the good topics would be out of the bad ones.
     
  20. JJE92

    JJE92 Moderator

    I can see the point in making all posts anonymous. However, this will also destroy the atmosphere in this forum to some considerable extent. Meeting people here that you know from playing or just working with people on some suggestions is an important part of the community. If we make everything anonymous, this won't be possible anymore, it will be hard to find out the people that have a similar viewpoints, so that you can collaborate with them.
    Overall, it could help for voting, but apart from this, I think it has more cons than pros.


    Sorting out bad suggestions:
    This could help in reducing the amount of pointless suggestions. This can mostly be done in remakes and visuals, because there it's not that hard to say whether a suggestion has even the slightest potential or not. This should be done carefully, but especially in visuals, the suggestions only supporting very unwarcraftish or bad quality icons could be sorted out fairly easily without large discussions.
    At some points it's less easy to do that, because I've seen plenty of bad suggestions that have 1 single point that is actually worth thinking about. Remember the Shadow Raze balance thread. There were so many suggestions that would just ruin SF and probably only one (a slight MC increase) that is worth thinking about, but like this it was flamed and not properly discussed. What should we do with such suggestions? Sorting it out completely would be bad, this would remove a valid point. Keeping it is not a good idea either, because it's so stacked of bad suggestions that would ruin the hero and are just not implementable. We'd have to think about these issues first.
    At hero ideas, I simply don't see how this is feasible. There are very few that are just awkward and have no chance at all, but the large majority is simply average, has some semi-good points, but still actually no chance of even 1 skill being implemented. Where should we draw the line, that's the difficult question here.


    Organising the remaining suggestions:
    That would be the follow-up question: Is sorting out the worst suggestions enough?
    If no, then how can we organise the remaining suggestions. Within these suggestions there will of course be better and more popular ones. But we shouldn't forget that even suggestions that are maybe worse than the best and most popular ones have a chance of being implemented, it depends on the circumstances.
    Therefore, Imo we should more focus on organising the rest in a way, that we and IceFrog can access more easily to the ideas we search.



    Clear is that any kind of poll is pointless, because they don't describe how useful the suggestion is or how likely it is going to be implemented. I've seen quite a few unpopular suggestions being implemented, while highly popular ones haven't.