Phoenix Item Build?

Discussion in 'Game Strategy' started by Volaju, Dec 25, 2010.

  1. Volaju

    Volaju Well-Known Member

    Usually I can come up with an item build that synergizes with a heros skillset fairly easily, even if its a new hero. Phoenix however... is really weird. =P

    All of his skills eat his own HP, so tanking up almost seems to be anti-synergy. On the other hand, life regen seems to be required, and if you don't stack HP, giving up 25% of your HP to cast might put you in the danger zone of nuke death etc. As a result, would hood (possibly pipe) / mek trump items like vanguard / heart, since they provide methods to recover lost HP rather than buffing the maximums?

    None of his skillset is very physical DPS oriented, and 2 of his skills actually turn off his physical attack ability (lazerbeam and ulty) However, he is a ranged strength hero, and that fact alone should be taken advantage of...

    On the other hand, because of that fact, items like manta / necrobook might be viable to give him damage dealing minions while he "channels" these other abilities?

    I imagine 2 ranged strength images, and necro 3 minions attacking your enemies while you ulty makes it very dangerous for the enemy team to attack your egg, because they just might die in the process. These minions and images would also increase your damage output while using lazerbeam, which other items don't seem to match.

    His beam costs a % of mana constantly, which means that much like storm, he would need massive mana regen to use it much. Would guinsoo be useful on him? Should mana regen not be focused on that much, and instead aim to succeed your combo, cast everything in your arsenal, and rely on supernova to regen at the end?

    I had considered refresher as well... it provides hp/MP regen which is nice, but the kicker is you can do your dive/nova combo twice, and since nova itself restores your mana to full, that pays for the active cost on refresher orb.

    Also, like any tanky hero, he could put AC to use I'm sure, though I really have no idea where I would fit that in. >_>

    As you can see, I'm all over the place, and really can't decide. The following items seem at least potentially useful on paper though:

    Treads / BoT
    Urn / Wand
    Hood or Pipe / Mek / Vanguard / Heart
    Necro / Manta
    Guinsoo / Refresher

    I have no real go to build atm, what have you guys tried, and how successful did you find it?
  2. Leadblast

    Leadblast Banned

    Rather than AC I'd pick Shiva's. Mana pool for beam and armor which he needs desperately. He can't go with physical DPS anyway.

    you're gonna need mass mana regen if you're to use beam often.
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2010
  3. Vect

    Vect Well-Known Member

    Yeah, this is a problem I've been facing too. As much as slark has synergy with almost every item, this guy doesnt have a real synergy with any.

    Althought he has no real steroid skills I will be testing him with some DPS items, played like a huskar.
    Laser is not that much of a dps as everyone claims and doesnt kick in until hitting 3000+ hp hero at which point it's possible he will have satanic or heart anyway.


    Well what else can you do after first 2 spells?
  4. rumplea25

    rumplea25 Well-Known Member

    bloodstone.. max laser first
  5. Myself

    Myself Well-Known Member

    How to play him before he gets nerfed:
    Skill spirits and laser, fuck dive. (If you suck, get it once)
    Acquire Soul Ring.
    Use Soul Ring.
    Use Spirits.
    Use Laser Forever.
    You don't need anymore items.

    Also lets take a look at the basics.

    He has insane base damage and decent +str, you'll see the base dmg getting nerfed in the next version and he isn't that good of a physical DPS machine anyway.
    His armor is pathetic and so is his agi gain.
    His intelligence is patheticish.

    I think it's fairly clear that your main source of damage will be laser. Icarus isn't a solo hero, he is the backing artillery of a team.

    The core item as I mentioned is soul ring. During the phases where your manapool is pretty low channeling laser won't take much out of it. The common strategy would be to use Soul Ring, spirits afterwards (pretty cheap mana and will completely make up for Soul Ring health loss AND laser health loss) and start firing your lasers.
    Later items are completely up to the enemy team but regardless you want to go with as many utility items as possible. Mainly items like Pipe and Meka. They increase your survivability while lasering and are helpful to your team.
    You could also go for Blink/Force if you find yourself in need for more mobility but I think his Dive is more than able to cope with his style of play.
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2010
  6. LimitbreaKer

    LimitbreaKer Well-Known Member

    Bloodstone fixes all the problems for me.

    Could consider Linken's...
  7. Leadblast

    Leadblast Banned

    yeah. Neglect arguably his best skill. Use SR. Use lazerz forever. Tear your own HP bar in pieces dumb.
    I'm quite surprised you didn't suggest Armlet at this point in time.
  8. Vect

    Vect Well-Known Member

    I wouldnt say it better myself.

    Burst dmg (dive) > dot (laser)

    And it serves for positioning, for escape, for a much easier ulti usage etc.

    % skills scale late game while fixed burst dmg does not, I cannot find any reason to max laser over dive
  9. Myself

    Myself Well-Known Member

    Tear your hp bar to pieces? Did you even test out what I said? Your spirits will heal you to full once you unleashed your spells and the SR buffer will give you around 10 seconds of FREE LASERING not to mention the entire process will HEAL YOU. I think the +150 and 1.5 disarm time lvl4 has over lvl1 PALES IN COMPARISON to a 28% slow difference and +30 base damage.
    Maxing dive and neglecting laser is the newbies way to play, those who can manage their hp right should have no problems stomping with laser spirits phoenix.
  10. Vect

    Vect Well-Known Member

    Where are you playing? This will only work in a low level pub with auto attacking mortred who doesnt know how to back off a little or juke right left.

    In anything more serious, YES, 150 burst dmg and 1.5 second of disarm do make a difference.
  11. Myself

    Myself Well-Known Member

    Please read what I wrote correctly before responding.

    I didn't say it doesn't make a difference, I'm saying the lasers' slow makes more of a difference, you feeling me?
    Naturally getting laser works better when you're in a dual or tri lane primarily because phoenix is one of those heroes who is 10x more effective with a partner. If you are (for some reason) soloing it might be better to get dive if you intend to snatch some early kills as the lasers damage will more or less be the same and there is too little room and time for long maneuvers which is where the laser slow would ordinarily shine.

    Obviously I know it's a tradition in Strategy to call any 'non-traditional' (how does this even apply to a hero out for 1 day) skill build to be mocked and to point out how 'it only works in pubs' but if you give what I said a slight thought you might see how laser is better in a supporting fire role phoenix.
  12. Volaju

    Volaju Well-Known Member

    I've played him a few more times now and goten much better at it, I can honestly say you're a healing machine if you get Mek + Urn. You're also rather tanky, though I blame his retarded str growth that im sure is going to get nerfed next patch.

    Anyway the item build I seem to like most atm is:

    Str treads

    If the game progresses, you could work toward bloodstone, or get a platemail and make an armor item if the need is there.

    These items all give him HP in some way, and every item aside from treads gives MP regen for spam. You can heal allies with mek + urn + spirits, and you heal yourself with those as well, and the linkens / bloodstone obviously heal you up as well... you become a fountain, litterally. Like you know how fountains pewpew with a line of death while healing everyone. Thats you >_>

    I still like the concept of necrobook on him since he permasnares and minions improve his DPS during laser attacks, but it might not be core afterall. Still nice though.
  13. Leadblast

    Leadblast Banned

    They will heal you after 12.5 seconds since the moment you used the spell. Don't you think that too many things can happen during that time interval?
  14. Vect

    Vect Well-Known Member

    Laser Pros:

    Toggleable skill,
    Pure dmg dot that is effective against tanks


    Movement cripple,
    Hard to keep focused on anyone above 300 ms,
    Scaling mana and hp cost

    While the above is irrelevant for an argument I wrote it as a reminder.

    While slow is good, it is unreliable thanks to turning speed.

    I will once again bring up my previous point. In a serious game (not gosugamers competitive, the games where people have some skills and dont pick 5 agi carries and cooporate together) burst dmg and 3.5 sec disarm makes MORE difference than a situational and unreliable slow that can be microed out (EVEN when disabled you would end up doing more dmg with burst and auto attack on a target)
    I am not arguing you because the build is "non-traditional" (I personally like mjolnir and blademail on this hero to make some lighings pop up while my spells are on cooldown ), I am doing it because current dota metagame is aggresive doesnt really fit laser rush, I dare to say it doesnt even fit phoenix skillset at the moment.
    Even viper is not a popular pick now althought he is an amazing laner and ganker.

    Personally more that I think of it, I am seeing more similarity with THD. They both build tankish items while they unleash their spells.
  15. hajasmarci

    hajasmarci Well-Known Member

    treads dagger bkb
  16. Unfawkable

    Unfawkable Well-Known Member

    Bloodstone or Linkens is good if you main the laser, if not, a regen item such as hood is good, though I'd avoid Vanguard since he's range, but it works I guess. Radiance is also pretty good.
  17. LysanderXonora

    LysanderXonora Well-Known Member


    You try me. Use laser only. No dive. One hammer from rk and you're back at your fountain. You must be playing some noob pub to even think it works. Yes he heal is good, BUT IT TAKES 10 SECONDS. YOU CAN DIE MANY TIMES OVER IN THAT 'SHORT' TIME.

    @TS, Well I'd go mekan (early headdress) treads/phase (situational), refresh (too good to pass up) and then AC or Shivas.
  18. Vinc3nt

    Vinc3nt Well-Known Member

    it gives you armor and int gain a little that mean gives you mana and regen. beside that you can counter carry from return damage and after using your blademail and get lot of damage, you can use your ulti to heal yourself
    any opinion?
  19. randashield

    randashield Well-Known Member

    well, guys, phoenix is one hell of a hero. but i'm kinda disappointed since i haven't seen any thread for tuskarr, his a strength but very cute hero with incredibly cute skills. like it doesn't seem to match with his appearance. i kinda think that he is an earth based hero. lol! when i played him, its like i wanna shout 'it's time to play snowbalLLLLLL'..... lol!
  20. Lycan

    Lycan Administrator

    Another ranged tank that's a masochist... so adapting huskar bracers(jango) treads soul ring armlet/hotd/bkb