PA and Echo Saber

Discussion in 'Game Strategy' started by Kik0Matchi, Aug 8, 2016.

  1. Camphor

    Camphor Well-Known Member

    pretty good low-cost substitute for SnY

    but if you were gonna rush BKB anyway you don't need it
     
  2. Kris

    Kris Moderator

    You're trading one hit of 130 IAS for a hit of 500 IAS and gaining about 1s of 100% slow for MS/IAS. While you're losing value on paper you're not really losing any value in game, and Echo fixes the HP and Mana difficulties while giving you even stupider slow spam.
     
  3. Anti-Xenophobe

    Anti-Xenophobe Well-Known Member

    PA has very limited inventory space and farm, which is the main problem here
    Consider this: you absolutely need BKB at 30 min in most games, because deathballing and Rosh attempts usually start happening by now if they haven't already.
    With Phase Aquila BKB Deso Basher, you essentially have a 12k networth inventory. With 400 gpm, you can't fit in Echo Sabre. PA is not an especially fast farmer, and she wants to end early
    Therefore Echo Sabre isn't realistic unless you're willing to give up Deso/Basher for it. I don't think it's worth it
     
  4. Urna-

    Urna- Well-Known Member

    Pretty sure Echo is better than basher at that timing. Basher doesn't give dps and echo does a way better job at providing surface area.

    PA mainly wants basher for when she needs to slay the enemy #1...

    Echo also farms way better than basher.

    Phase, Vladimir, Deso, Echo, BKB
     
  5. mrfokker

    mrfokker Well-Known Member

    Why would you go vlads+echo when you can have OK sustain and actual farm potential with BF? Lifesteal is OK, but you aren't going to manfight shit.

    You either blow someone up and keep going with number superiority momentum or you don't kill shit and get blown up.

    You want your oov+blightstone in lane, and aquila+phase+RD ASAP. You either go fighting and get a deso or farming and get BF. If you are fighting nonstop bkb is probably the best extension, but if you can farm you should consider BF even if it's just to shove waves faster. Basher works as Kris said if you want to jump the carry, but that has limited success rate without Bkb anyways. And echo does nothing about it really.

    If you want early tankiness get a vanguard and call it a day.
     
  6. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Well-Known Member

    PA with phase+OoV already has good chasing power, and mana regen is also covered by other cheap items. echo is really redundant, just get BKB/vg which is a real survivability.

    basher/abysal is not just about countering carries. it's needed to actually use your DPS in a world of Euls/Ghost scepters and escape spells. Deso is outclassed by Basher+Medallion, unless tower damage is important.
     
  7. mrfokker

    mrfokker Well-Known Member

    Deso is only outclassed by rapier really
     
  8. Kris

    Kris Moderator

    Because the point of the Vlad Deso build that QO made popular is forcing fights in the 10-18 minute time frame where it's not possible for the other team to develop the economy to handle you.

    PA isn't actually a good lategame hero, her skills get super outdated once the enemy team can purchase things like Ghost/ Eul/ Force/ Blademail/ Silver Edge/ MKB/ Hex/ Blink/ Glimmer.

    Echo is simply a nice extension in the build because it gives very good burst DPS on your phantom strike and makes it so you don't have to dagger that target to stick to them.

    I'd also contend that Vlad Deso should have similar if not greater ability to farm ancients or kill camps between engagements. It definitely does a better job taking high ground.
     
  9. IHateLeavers

    IHateLeavers Well-Known Member

    She's fine late game if you itemize properly. It's just, her evasion is so ez to counter.
     
  10. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Well-Known Member

    Link Please
     
  11. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Well-Known Member

    I dont get how inreasing attack speed from 260 to 600 for one attack is that useful. It feels that dmg is needed

    The worst part is that echo proccs everytime you blink strike. At least with LC it doesnt happen all the time; MoC and PtA can happen at different attacks than echo.

    ---------- Post added at 10:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 AM ----------

    Ummm, is it actually viable to do this? I have feeling that it is better not interrupt pa strike. Is it really ok to blink and then use dagger?

    Doesnt it give the enemies chance to react maybe? Or that if you have very high IAS then its not good to cast spells?

    I dont actually play pa, so i will have to ask the folks here :\
     
  12. Dr_JP

    Dr_JP Well-Known Member

    You'll have Desolator/Basher/Abyssal, so it's better for you to start hitting and, then, if more DPS is required, you keep on with Dagger.

    If you throw Dagger first, you offer more time for enemies to react than blinking directly (they could hear and double click their Blink Dagger, e.g.)

    You usually deals PA's first 4 attacks very quickly, so you just use Dagger to keep onto your targets, meaning you won't need to interrupt her attacks (throw Dagger when you lose contact with your target).
     
  13. Kris

    Kris Moderator

    Landing 2 hits inside of 0.3s is faster than some heroes can react with spells.
    Applying a 100% MS/IAS is very valuable, and lets you save dagger.
    The stats mix is nice for PA, you get HP, Regen, and a bit more DPS.
    You aren't going to be making Echo before Deso, after Deso you're threatening to jump in and kill supports and unless you are making BKB, Echo is probably the most efficient extension.

    Yes and no, You could be hitting someone to death with your Echo and then use phantom strike after it had proc'd. Seems a bit of an inconvenience in practice though. Ultimately this is a problem where the efficiency lost on paper doesn't feel the same as the in-game application.
     
  14. WuzuIII

    WuzuIII Well-Known Member

    pros pick this hero? LUL
     
  15. Houselife

    Houselife Well-Known Member

    .

    It increases crit chance, for troll and void increases stun chance, but the item is better for troll, just a comfortable mana reg during early game for a W-M and ulti spam just a fast farm with a safe mana slot.

    Honorable candidates are Commander and Ursa.
     
  16. vijju1234567890

    vijju1234567890 Well-Known Member

    True.

    The ogre club should be used for BKB because she NEEDS it to survive nukes in teamfights.

    I don't find myself building oblivion staff on her....

    I'd rather get a deso and witness 1 dagger deaths of their support sky with 1 armor XD
     
  17. Abdulink

    Abdulink Well-Known Member

    Lol
     
  18. WUUSTER

    WUUSTER Well-Known Member

    If Echo's legit, what would a build order look like?

    Phase/Aquila, Vlad's, Deso, Echo?
     
  19. Kris

    Kris Moderator

    Probably start by testing:
    Phase, Venom, Blight, Vlads, Deso, Echo/BKB, BKB/Echo
     
  20. SBVenom

    SBVenom Well-Known Member

    vlads deso looks so bad together in the inventory. how about solar crest hotd diffusal?

    5k vs 7k+ ?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 16, 2016