MKB vs Daedalus

Discussion in 'Game Strategy' started by Ari~, Aug 19, 2012.

  1. Ari~

    Ari~ Banned

    Which should I get (assuming MKB's Truesight is not needed)?

    What is the base damage threshold I should have crossed to make Daedalus more effective?
  2. Frost

    Frost Well-Known Member

    I'm under the impression that Daedalus will always be better unless you need that truestrike/mini-crit.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2012
  3. CynthiaCrescent

    CynthiaCrescent Well-Known Member

    MKB is always the safer and more reliable choice. However, none of its components are as impressive as Crystallis.
  4. badmafa

    badmafa Banned

    If you're a ranged hero, there's always attacking uphill. MKB makes cracking tier 3s much easier.
  5. Mclane23

    Mclane23 Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't place javelin so far behind crystalis gold/dmg wise.
  6. Razer.Cyberias

    Razer.Cyberias Graphics Crew

    You have to ask a mechfag for the damage threshold thing. But i'm just going to say that choosing between mkb and dae is based on the situation, like if you are expecting more teamfights, then go for daedalus, or if u want good pushing power, take mkb.
  7. xpforever

    xpforever Well-Known Member

    There isn't a fixed break-even point because you have to consider:
    1. Attack speed from MKB
    2. Damage type of minibash (always magic damage in dota 2).
  8. Mousatos

    Mousatos Well-Known Member

    Here's what i found:

  9. Erios

    Erios Well-Known Member

    Dunno why so much useless math up there

    x = AS
    y = damage

    buriza = x * (y+81) * 1.375
    mkb = (x+15) * (y+123)

    So we must find when they do the same DPS.

    x * (y+81) * 1.375 = (x+15) * (y+123)


    Buriza > MKB pretty much always.
  10. Mousatos

    Mousatos Well-Known Member

    How does that work if x=0?

    Implying that when saying:
    Buriza = x * (y+81) * 1.375 (x=AS) is not the DPS formula. Instead of "x" it should be APS = (1+x/100)/BAT
    Making Buriza(dps)=(y+81) * 1.375*(1+x/100)/BAT

    Same with MKB. (APS = (1.15 + Y/100)/BAT)
  11. Erios

    Erios Well-Known Member

    As I said, x = Attack Speed, not increased attack speed, your attack speed can't go below 20, even in the case that it would be 0, it means you are not making any attack at all, so MKB is better cause it allows you to do attacks...

    Or in other words it means that if x = 0 there is never a point in which they do the same DPS, remember that it is an hyperbola, if you want the full graphic for negative values and much larger values input that in geogebra online application.

    Of course this is considering you don't allow negative values for damage, but if that is the case then there are points in which you are healing the target if your damage is too low. Either way MKB should deal 0 DPS at -15 AS and at -123 damage, so the point (0, -123) should be in that graph since both deal equal DPS, 0.
  12. Mousatos

    Mousatos Well-Known Member

    Edited the post above.

    Also, you are wrong. If x=0 => APS=1/(BAT)=1/1.7 attacks per second (in most cases, where BAT=1.7sec)
  13. Erios

    Erios Well-Known Member

    As I said, x = AS not APS, BAT an irrelevant factor when comparing the items.

    Suppose we have a hero that deals x damage, with y AS and z BAT.

    What would be the increase % wise of DPS if we add x1 damage?
    It would be (x+x1)/x

    For AS is the same, as you see z is not involves in any of those calculations, meaning it is irrelevant to calculate the % increase.

    If one gives more % increase than the other and z is irrelevant always then we can say that z is irrelevant when comparing what item brings more DPS to the hero.
  14. Rebuke

    Rebuke Well-Known Member

    nice 1k crit

    but mis alll

  15. Erios

    Erios Well-Known Member

    Or if you want a more simple way to understand if that does not make sense to you.

    The DPS is:

    buriza = x * (y+81) * 1.375/BAT
    mkb = (x+15) * (y+123)/BAT

    When comparing

    g(x): (x+15) * (y+123)/BAT = x * (y+81) * 1.375/BAT

    Since BAT != 0

    f(x): (x+15) * (y+123) = x * (y+81) * 1.375

    f(x) = g(x)
  16. Mousatos

    Mousatos Well-Known Member

    Then your formula is not the DPS formula.
    DPS=DMG(of one attack)*APS(attacks per second)
    You replaced APS part with AS, making
    x * (y+81) * 1.375
    stand for nothing. What is DMG * AS?


    buriza= 1+x/(BAT)*(y+81) * 1.375
    MKB=(1.15 + x/100)/BAT*(y+123)
  17. Erios

    Erios Well-Known Member

    That graph works perfectly, they do the same DPS at the following:

    (x+15) * (y+123)/BAT = x * (y+81) * 1.375/BAT

    Where x is you attack speed and y is your damage.

    That graph yields the same result as the one I posted as I said already above, if you want to move the axis x by 100 units so you get IAS instead of AS do it, fine by me, not like I care.

    If you are truly clueless about math then don't even try....

    tl;dr You don't need to use the DPS formula, you need to use your brain.
    Also stop confusing AS = IAS, a hero that is itemless and has 0 agility has an AS of 100 and an IAS of 0.
  18. CynthiaCrescent

    CynthiaCrescent Well-Known Member

    The most attractive features of the MKB is its ability to make every hit counts, and more. I won't deny that in terms of raw damage buriza has an edge.
  19. Mousatos

    Mousatos Well-Known Member

    Let's make it simpler.
    Let's say a hero has x=0 (no IAS AT ALL) and DMG= and (BAT) = 1

    I put dmg so high because, for the following calculations, i will assume for simplicity's sake, the dmg of the items are negligible. What's 123 or 81 dmg when you have dmg? Same thing with (BAT). Simplicity.

    According to your calculations, MKB is always better here. Right? The graph line never reaches zero, making => IF:x=0 always be MKB>Buriza.

    Let's see about this.
    Normally DPS=
    With MKB DPS=*1.15(from attack speed)=
    With buriza DPS=*1.375(from crit multiplier)=1.375.000.000

    So there is a point where buriza>MKB for x=0
    So your graph is wrong.
    So your math is wrong.
    So AS is irrelevant with DPS, APS is relevant.
    Only thing, x=IAS in your math, otherwise, x+15 in MKB formula, is wrong.
    The +15 is the IAS MKB gives, not the AS. How can you add AS and IAS?
    Still wrong.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2012
  20. eimeegaw

    eimeegaw Well-Known Member

    ignoring the Math:
    low dmg? yes: get mkb
    1st or 2nd core item? yes: get mkb
    high dmg? yes: get buriza
    *but for drow ranger , i prefer getting buriza after yasha+hotd because she has a lot of dmg even though it would be her like 1st/2nd luxury item