History Debates

Discussion in 'Debate Forum' started by HHHNNNGGG, Feb 22, 2015.


    HHHNNNGGG Well-Known Member

    I am interested in history, especially in world history, but I have never had a chance to have a proper history class in my life (during school history classes are too biased, one-sided, and the lack of world history does annoy me). For that reason, I open this thread, first, to learn and understand history in various perspectives, and second, to make a thread for any history lovers around here.

    The thread will deal with one topic at a time, and the OP will be updated every time the topic changes. The topic will change whenever everyone agrees to, or the topic doesn't have anything left worth discussing. You can vote for the next topic here whenever a topic is dropped. I will keep track of the discussion and also will join you guys (if I think my limited knowledge permit).

    Feel free to voice your opinions (and be civil :respect:). Also I appreciate any reliable source you provide.

    Topic 1: Middle Ages
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2015
  2. kildat017

    kildat017 Well-Known Member

    a bit of math. first, you hear this both in anime and movies, but you can't deny that history is written only by the victors. they can twist the truth in any way they want.

    second, my usual phrase. "for as long as humans are bound to oxygen, food and water, they have all the reason in the world to lie and deceive".

    put two together and I just completed a huge theory on why your government is your worst enemy. Clearly there's no history class where it wouldn't introduce you to heroes. Or they most likely call it national heroes. why would they do this? to give you a false sense of gratitude. which in turn justifies your obligation to pay taxes. In truth, your heroes are nothing more than a noobfag and your government is only eating from your taxes. Why do you think history is included in your education curriculum?

    HHHNNNGGG Well-Known Member

    About the first point (quoted from Churchill), it is the reason why I created this thread for people to share their perspectives on history.

    About your theory, I somewhat both agree and disagree. I disagree because paying tax is already an obligation if you are a member of the society, but at the same time I agree because more than often the government do not use the taxes correctly.

    As for me, history is just another story (hence you can't spell it without story). Knowing more of history is to understand the culture.

  4. kildat017

    kildat017 Well-Known Member

    don't you mean "his story"?

    anyway, history feels like going full Umineko all over again but without the red/blue/gold truth. history feels like white text and nothing more. one should take history with a grain of salt.

    history will never tie itself with truth. It's full of bullshits and I blame education curriculum for even wasting my youth. one of the reasons why education is overrated.

    Same with History Channel :cat:
  5. Drone_7

    Drone_7 Well-Known Member

    I heard someone suggest history is in fact written by the saltiest.
  6. Mognakor

    Mognakor Well-Known Member

    The european middle ages are overrated, it's 1000 years with no progress.

    World Wars are overdiscussed.

    HHHNNNGGG Well-Known Member

    You think so? I am quite interested because I did not really know what happened after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire aside from the foundation of various western countries.

    And yeah, WWs, like most modern topics, are quite over-discussed.
  8. TwoHourMotel

    TwoHourMotel Well-Known Member

    the notion that "history is written by the victors" is only a half-truth. The reality is that we learn about what happened in the past from sources other than contemporary stories, we can still more or less piece together what happened in the past using archaeological finds which includes (but isn't limited to) finding old structures, bones, contemporary stories from the losing side, tools, weapons among other things.

    If you're gonna claim that history is made-up, you better have some evidence to show that archeologists are liars and/or deceiving us (for what purpose?).

    I think the "history is written by the victors" means more that those civilizations that survive the wars decide which direction their society heads towards (thus shaping human history), rather than they get to make up whatever stories they want.
  9. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    Middle ages are actually fascinating in many regards. Some of the notions of the time and sociopolitical structures are very interesting.

    Many people disregard this period in Europe because of the "big man mentality", the notion that history is written through tales of great men and big events. In reality, much of history is in the details and extremely elegant. And especially middle ages Europe when the biggest changes of historical importance pay due to completely unorthodox factors like disease, education and religious dominance.
  10. TwoHourMotel

    TwoHourMotel Well-Known Member

    OP, if you're fascinated by the middle ages and you don't mind playing grand strategy games, I would strongly suggest you play Crusader Kings 2. It takes place (if you get the DLCs) between 700 AD to 1400 AD, you'll learn a lot about the different religions in Europe, Asia and North Africa as well as how rulership worked, how the papacy worked, what de facto/de jure territories existed at what time (it's incredibly historically accurate) and honestly once you get over the initial information overload it's an extremely fun game.

    HHHNNNGGG Well-Known Member

    Hmm... Interesting thought. I have never thought of it before.

    Since there is a big hole in my history class (talking very few on this period) and it jumps straight to the early modern with revolutionaries and industrialization, it does intrigue me about the era that creates the foundation for it.

    I have heard of it before but I have never had the time to play. Thanks for the recommendation.
  12. Mognakor

    Mognakor Well-Known Member

    I guess it depends on the country. In germany we spent 1 year with the middle ages and it mostly was about boring and unrelevant stuff. On the other side history ended pretty much at the end of WW2 and left out much more important stuff.

    Ofc. the middle ages hold some important stuff but limiting it to King X began war against King Y or Pope A crowned King B makes the topic very boring.

    I think in the last 100-150 years we had at least as much important events as the entire middle ages had.
  13. kildat017

    kildat017 Well-Known Member

    nah. you're putting too much unwarranted credit to humanity.

    but hey, since you said half-truth then it means its also half-bullshit.

    HHHNNNGGG Well-Known Member

    I thought the Middle Ages went by with the Crusaders and stuffs?

    Also by this time Islam expanded its influence as well, but it was in the Middle East and somehow expanded to Byzantine/Ottoman. Dunno, my knowledge about this time is pretty limited.
  15. Mognakor

    Mognakor Well-Known Member

    Crusades are merely 200 years of middle ages.

    It depends on the focus, if you look at Europe in the middle ages things progressed really slowly.

    ---------- Post added at 03:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:17 PM ----------

    If you left out the middle ages and went straight from year 500 to year 1500 you wouldn't have much difference.

    The major events are Luther, the Crusades, the walk to canossa and the events that ended the middle ages: Columbus discovering America and the fall of Byzanz.

    By the end of the middle ages the structure of society, rights etc. are still similiar to the beginning, it's the centuries after that made our western world what it is.

    ---------- Post added at 03:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:17 PM ----------

    I'm not even sure if crusades were so important after all. Doesn't seem like they changed much.

    HHHNNNGGG Well-Known Member

    So most of the important developments are toward the end of Middle Ages?

    I thought that Crusades helped expanding Christianity.

    I saw a few churches in France, the architecture is quite gorgeous so I want to understand a bit more about this period.

    Btw, update OP for this topic for now..
  17. Mognakor

    Mognakor Well-Known Member

    The crusades were about conquering Jerusalem etc. it makes little sense to bring christianity to the place it originated from.

    By the beginning of the middle ages christianty already was quite expanded, the most important event in that context was the roman empire adopting christianity but that happend between the death of Jesus and the beginning of the middle ages. Maybe there was some development in the early times of the middle ages until ~800-1000 but nothing special happened after that.
  18. Rakkis157

    Rakkis157 Well-Known Member

    This is a good thread. Would really help me out.

    Malaysian History Curriculum tends to focus solely on the stuff that happens locally. Western History, including both World Wars is horribly glossed over. There is more content about the Japanese Invasion during WW2 than there is about WW2 itself.
  19. Drone_7

    Drone_7 Well-Known Member

    TIL religious dominance is an unorthodox historical factor.
  20. r0xo

    r0xo Well-Known Member

    I was going to talk about this yesterday but never got around to it. The "loser" also has more and more of a voice as we advance technologically. You can't rewrite history after you have won if there are already thousands of tweets and recorded articles stating the contrary. It was easier in the past but still, it wasn't all manipulated. Certain civilizations like the Egyptians for example left out any defeats, which meant that it took allot longer for us to learn the truth.

    That was the Roman Emperor Constantinople, who basically used his "conversion" to Christianity as the way to unify the population of Rome, which was quite divided at that point. Making it the official religion, and later on the only one, was a brilliant way of unifying the people. And it worked out quite well for Christianity.