Dalai Lama on the migrant crisis

Discussion in 'World News & Debates' started by Ostarion, Jun 1, 2016.

  1. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Yeah, pretty much.
    And yet, it does.
    NATO's actions are one of the big reasons.
    Really ? I would like to hear how.
    So, just like NATO ?
    This whole idea of EU army is such a long shot and far far away from ever becoming a thing, but you seem to already know how it will works, its jurisdictions, authorities, agendas, instructions, everything. Do you know something that we don't ?
    For defensive purposes, no.
    For getting back its "independence", very much yes.
     
  2. TwoHourMotel

    TwoHourMotel Well-Known Member

    I'm gonna need to see some evidence. As far as I can see, NATO is an alliance between north america and european countries. AFAIK NATO has not created any laws in Europe.

    Lax border control, open border policy, allowing economic migrates who are abusing the system to stay. It's not hard to figure out.

    What does this even mean. I'm starting to get irritated by these one word throwaway responses.

    Yeah it's called studying history. And EU already has a navy by the way, this is a proposal for creating an actual standing army. Now I wonder why they want a standing army in Europe.

    It's almost like it's easier to oppress a population with a standing army hmm...

    How exactly does EU having it's own army getting back it's independence? The EU was never an independent entity. Also in your own words you want this to happen for an alliance between russia, britian and china. How the fuck is that independence. It clearly is the opposite, the sovereign countries of EU lose their independence to a governmental body that doesn't give a shit about them.

    NATO and EU are not the same thing. Please educate yourself.
     
  3. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    Everything would change. An army is a tool and the strongest member will eventually get a hold on it. WW2 was much different, a more pressing matter, Germany forced two different worlds (Soviet union and Britain) to work together. But today there is no reason for such an alliance, no one poses a direct threat to the EU, hence the existence of such alliance is needless. People don't just create an alliance for the heck of it.
    They are fully sovereign states, even if they don't have much power in the EU parliament. But if you create an army, you will give even more power to an already authocratic system and they would be very quickly stripped of their full independence. What good would that serve? You think European countries would just freely give it away?
    Read my comparison with antique Greece a.k.a the Delian league.
     
  4. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    And Turkey.
    And I didnot say NATO created laws in Europe, just that it broke all international laws, Security councis statutes, United Nations statutes. Even its own definition
    Its been like that for decades and there were no problems, especially not crisis. Until USA decides what "regime" is OK and which isn't and tears the country apart with using Europe and NATO organisation as an instrument of reaching their interests.

    You said you study history. Figure it out.

    Or its called presumptions.

    hopefully, it will be able to say "No" when NATO decides to overthrow another leader often democratically elected on elections, if it doesnot serve USA interests anymore.

    Berlin, Moscow and Beijing. And No, I just want closer political and economical ties and cooperation between them, which would work in everyone's benefit, not an alliance.

    Again presumption about its power and jurisdictions.
    I am not optimist at all, but why does it have to be so grim ? Are we civilized humans, or savage Albanian tribes ?

    Nor did ever said they are the same thing.
    i just said that NATO does with Europe exactly what you presume would be happening to EU country if EU army was created.

    ---------- Post added at 06:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:55 PM ----------

    Hopefully. And for the better.

    Just like USA with NATO now.
    Yes. Always a possibility.
    Hopefully we are civilized humans not savage tribes.

    Same can be said for membership in NATO. But its still exists. Only as an instrument for USA for achieving their goals and filling the pockets of weapons maker lobbyists.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2016
  5. Eli_Green

    Eli_Green Well-Known Member

    >assumuing China would willingly cooperate with anyone unless it meant they were (or were attempting to) financially taking ownership of the party in question

    Ayy lmao

    Say what you want about the states being corrupt; but China is no better and probably worse.

    Russia will just go to whoever is winning tbh.
     
  6. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

  7. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    I think one point to make that should be made clear is that EU is first and foremost an economic union with extensive legislative authorities. It's not a defensive or military pact and relies pretty much on continental pacifism.

    NATO is by design a military pact designed to protect the US, their allies and their interests from external threats. They are not supposed to keep an eye on the economy or the laws, that's not what NATO is about. This is why NATO is generally comfortable with having a hierarchy where US is kind of the boss (given it's the strongest military, in order for everyone to be in safe hands) while in the EU, countries react intensively at the idea of a singular country ruling over them, as it tramples the initial idea of equality among all nations in it.

    The EU and NATO are not the same thing and never will be because they are completely different types of entities and it is reflected fittingly by their respective contemporary hegemonies: NATO is lead by the US, a primarily military force with active military intervention foreign policy. The EU is effectively lead by Germany, a largely militarily uninterested, nigh-pacifist country that is more involved in doing business.

    And given we are talking about immigration policies, this is also why NATO has virtually nothing to do with how the migrant crisis plays out or what the implications in regards to surrounding nations will be, while the EU is 100% involved. And it is obvious once again by how the things are handled. US is largely conservative or at the very least cautiously centre-right, they would have never adopted policies like the EU did with this crisis, even with actual refugees coming in.
     
  8. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

  9. Ostarion

    Ostarion Well-Known Member

    I like this comment from Angus Gallagher:

    ''So if they get an EU Army- NATO just curls into a corner and dies?. Yeah, right.
    Actually, what you get is the nightmare of a fully militarized and resurgent Germany allied to America and a reinforced, earthquake proof EU that is, of course, wholly subservient to the US.
    America will entirely support an EU Army- if it strengthens the EU and anything else is pure conjecture. No American general or state department official sees an EU Army as anything other than a bunch of eurosocialists finally ready to spend some money.
    An EU Army is just another arrow in the EU-NATO Axis' quiver, a further way to militarize Europe and with highly unpredictable consequences. Not only does an EU Army presume the eternal preservation of the EU and NATO, it can be used against EU citizens and militarily in blurred situations in frozen conflict areas where NATO would deploy it as a proxy force.
    Nothing that ever grows out of the EU will replace American domination of the continent- nothing. Does a thorn that grows from a rose bush -replace the rose?
    On the contrary, it's only by taking the EU down can we even begin to contemplate limiting US influence in Europe.
    It's almost unimaginable that people would be so naive as to think that forming an EU Army would mean NATO withers and dies- the truth is the total opposite- NATO just gets an auxiliary force and a clever ruse to balance the books. The EU Army is a NATO subcontractor that reinforces German rule over Europe- on America's behalf.
    It's no more sensible than saying because the 3rd Reich has established a Banderist militia we can all breathe a sigh of relief because the Wehrmacht are now going to dissolve themselves thereby awarding us an effortless strategic advantage. That's the level of gullibility we are dealing with here.''


    Which is what I said earlier. And EU army won't counter NATO. It will be an extension of NATO. Of course never allowed to surpass US military.
     
  10. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Always a possibility.

    Who said it should counter NATO ?
    It should provide "independence" from NATO.
     
  11. Ostarion

    Ostarion Well-Known Member



    More like a fact. If EU would start militarizing an independent army the US would sooner nuke them than to allow that happening.

    Semantics.
     
  12. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Exactly.
    And finally, we are at the core of the problem.
     
  13. Eli_Green

    Eli_Green Well-Known Member

    Literally every third party that has commented on ybe Brexit has said staying would be better. Both the US AND China even agreed on this sentiment. If anything it is biased in the other direction or at least external forces would rather keep the status quo.
     
  14. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Yeah, but better for who ?
    USA has its obvious interests. And China is finishing "Silk road" volume 2, and its better for her to have larger Eu market with GB than smaller without it.

    What about EU interests ?
     
  15. Eli_Green

    Eli_Green Well-Known Member

    They also want the UK to stay for rather obvious reasons. Not sure why you have such a desire for the EU to be its own thing. Sure you could be an independent body but with the way the global economy works you'd still be at the mercy of multi-national corps...
     
  16. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    This is soooo not what I am talking about.
    But, this has potential to lower the influence of multi-national corporations as well.
    As a side bonus.
     
  17. Eli_Green

    Eli_Green Well-Known Member

    doubtful.