Dalai Lama on the migrant crisis

Discussion in 'World News & Debates' started by Ostarion, Jun 1, 2016.

  1. TwoHourMotel

    TwoHourMotel Well-Known Member

    Isn't the whole thing about refugees is that you send them back once the war is over or whatever? When was it decided that these people are staying forever?
  2. Arcana_Arcanus

    Arcana_Arcanus Well-Known Member

    Have can you not understand that there could be no more Greater Germany after Great War which by the moment was orchestrated by Germany in a first place. The astonishing devastation brought upon Low Countries and East Normandy was also a subject to direct reparation.

    One must understand that in a hindsight it is now safe to say that Versailles was actually needed, it just was not enforsed enough. Victors were very kind to Germans allowing them to keep their independence (there were smart to not repeat that mistake again in the next war). Had there been no Versailles Germany would strike much, much sooner which is evident from history of French-German wars of XIX c.

    Wat. This has absolutely no credentiality and connection to german (and general european) antisemitism whatsoever.

    What are you even talking about?
    1)Germany has openly violated Treaty of Versailles by reoccupying Rhineland. Evil Capitalist Western Swine swallowed it.
    2)Germany openly invaded Austria and annexed it by force. Once again, Evil Capitalist Western Swine swallowed it.
    3)Germany invaded Sudetes of Czechoslovakia and even had a complete approval as a sign of appeasement from Evil Capitalist Western Swine.

    "This is my LAST aquisition in Europe!" (C) Addie Hitlar

    4)Germany spits upon the aggreement and invades, subdues, partitions Czechoslovakia entirely. Forceful ethnic cleansing, mass killings of the entire echelons of Czech intellectuals - and Evil Capitalist Western Swine STILL swallow it.

    5)Germany annexes Memel from Lithuania. Evil Capitalist Western Swine yet again swallowed it.

    6)Finally, poor germans are FORCED by evil warmongering poles to Liberate free city of Danzig (think:Sevastopol). Cowardly, Evil Capitalist Western Swine unilaterally attack Germany, but they just wanted to purify East from Polish subhumans in order to gain Lebensraum. What an outraging monstrocity!

    What kind of quotation is that? You could at least care to include some authentic source on that quote.

    In August,39 german plans to forcefully close polish access to the sea were no longer a subject of a doubt to any sane man, and of course not to any Pole. What marshal could truly mean with this quote, if he really said so, and I am sure that if he did it is taken out of context heavily - is that Poland will not give up against the force like Czechs did.

    This strides into offtop region too fast.
    Your forbes article is hidden behind a paywall for me. On the subject, I am sure if you'd ask germans in occupied Czechoslovakia or even in Sudettes themselves in 1938 how do they feel, they would praise Hitler. And yet we all know what happened to them, in 1945 (read:massive ethnic cleansing). Same thing has happened in occupied eastern Croatia (Srpska Krajina), and again, completely justified ethnic cleansing by croats some time later. Time will come for Crimea just as well, and collaborators will run or hang eventually.

    But even more lulz is how this propaganda youtube video shows a series of very often completely unconnected events (in some cases even putting russian\separatist related collateral in it just for fun because noone from the west will tell the difference) and shifts the blame of war to the defender. Works for most naive people I guess. But again, I completely justify action against collaborators on occupied territories. Justice should be swift and relentless in their case.
  3. Ostarion

    Ostarion Well-Known Member

    But first you said Versailles was made to maintain status quo. Even though it completely destroyed Germany. Now you say it was needed to stop German ambitions. I disagree. because I think Germany got hit way too hard, and the result was obvious. But atleast we can agree on something. You have no idea what Status quo means. There is a book by John Maynard Keynes were he argues how this peace was a so called 'Carthaginian peace' and a mistake. But then again, the brits are experts at drawing lines to increase tensions. Just see Africa or the middle east. And btw historically Germans were way more peaceful than the brits.

    You have a country which is not taking part in the war. Years in, when everyone else is spent, they suddenly enter. And the reward isn't for their own citizens. But a bunch of jews are now waving a piece of paper saying ''because America went to war, we deserve a country!''. A country stolen from people who also had no part in the war. It's common sense how the Germans felt about the jews then. 2+2 logic. Also ''anti-semitism''. Please don't use this buzzword. Next you are going to tell me that the fact jews established FED and have been heading it for 100 years is anti-semitic. That the fact all major media corporations in USA are run by jews and control 95% of the media is anti-semitic. Just stop.

    So, all the above are what used to be German territory. With German people living there. And what you call appeasement are basically British allowing this because they don't see a problem. George Bernard Shaw said about the Rhineland ''invasion'' that it is no different than the british invading Portsmouth. But of course, destroying a country and carving it up is needed according to you. While reuniting people who used to live together 18 years ago is ''evil invasion''. The Munich agreement which gave Sudetes legally to Hitler is ''appeasement'' by Chamberlain. While Versailles is fair and needed because obviously the Germans are the only evil people in Europe. And your point about Austria is just a joke. ''Annexed by force''. Give me a break. There were no shots fired when Hitler rolled in. People fucking cheered for him.

    Also, all this began in 1936. The jews declared war on Hitler in 1933. His peace offers were made way before that aswell. http://ostarapublications.com/world-rejected-hitlers-peace-offers-1933-1940/

    All got rejected. These things tell you they want war. It's the same as what is going on with Russia and US today. US building NATO bases all over the world. Destabilizing Ukraine. But when you make a move to protect yourself you are the aggressor. Because obviously only one country can act with their national interests in mind. They are always right, and everyone who tries to do something for their own country is bombed like Gaddafi. And if you do nothing you suddenly realize you are surrounded and unable to do anything even if you wanted. Unlike you I realize that in war both sides are out for their own benefit and interests. While you rationalize one side as good and the other as evil.

    http://lubimyczytac.pl/ksiazka/99004/ku-wrzesniowi-1939-zbrojne-ramie-sanacji (only available in Polish, because obviously they wont translate such books)

    Poland was just a puppet used to isntigate the war. Just like they are being used now to spark aggression with Russia. Also when Hitler invaded Poland France and UK immediately declare war. But when Stalin takes half of Poland, where citizens suffer even worse, they do nothing. Even though they signed a pact just months before Hitler's attack. I wonder why is that?

    Forbes needs adblock disabled, not sure why. And yes, what happened to them is because Hitler lost the war. If there was no war nothing would happen to them. If Hitler won, it would be even better for them. If USA takes Crimea by force and kills every civilian are you going to blame Russia for that? Holy shit.

    Ah yes. Propganda video. Classic. Everything by the ''evil'' guys is propaganda, while the good guys never use propaganda. The good guys also only care about the people, not about building military bases all around the ''bad'' guys and about destroying the ''bad'' guys economically.

    Even if there are russian agents in the video. Are you denying it shows non-Russian troops harming and intimidating civilians? Why is Russia the bad guy, while USA isn't?
  4. MWaser

    MWaser Well-Known Member

    The problem lies in big part in the fact that you won't be able to send all these people back.

    And that most of them aren't even refugees.
  5. TwoHourMotel

    TwoHourMotel Well-Known Member

    Clearly economic migrates shouldn't be tolerated, but I cannot justify denying enterance to those who really are escaping war.
  6. Arcana_Arcanus

    Arcana_Arcanus Well-Known Member

    This is straight ridiculous. I guess I bother to argue with an obvious troll just for the sake of the less informed public.

    Status Quo refered to a post-war Status Quo, silly. It was inferred that if Germany was allowed to remilitarize, it would attempt to repeat the horrors of Great War. And that was EXACTLY what happened. The only problem, again, is that Versailles was NOT properly enforced.

    German economy was struggling under the reparation burden. And yet that burden was totally justified, after what germans did in Low Countries and Normandy.

    However instead of following american restructurisation proposals germans yet again chose (allowed to step in) imperialists to get carte blanche on their actions. This has led to a wave of sanctions that further crippled their economy.

    But I want to add that its a myth (which "uninformed" nazi apologists like to spread) that Hitler improved german economy under his rule. Quite the contrary, Germany descended into a deep recession resembling the worst days of Weimar. Continious denominations and strict price controls barely allowed to keep inflation in check, however nazis were forced to employ ration cards as early as 1938, even before the damn war. The only thing that they were able to achieve is to significantly reduce unemployment through massive rearmanent, mobilization and several nationwide government infrastructure projects that increased the debt burden even further (but duh, you could always hide it behind "mah versailles!" mottos.

    Your slogans have no credibility whatsoever. I ask you for sources on "Amurica went into war because jews", and you answer me with "But jews have eaten all sources!". So yet again, I ask you to bring some sources on this matter that aren't from "Der Sturmer" or "Young Chetnik".

    "German territories" were a part of an empire that no longer was. They were lands conqured and subdued, with nations that have longed for their own freedom. Why some nations (like Yugoslavia\Serbia) are allowed to exist while others not? Ah! Of course! Because they are (quoting Mein Kampf) Weak States that are to be anihilated as a joke, those who do not have will to crush and kill will be crushed and killed themselves. Praise Holy Violence, strong shall maim the damn weakling!

    And then Austria. Some (read:NSDAP activists) indeed cheered for the invaders. However views from the inside give another perspective on this matter. I have already gave a link on Shirer's "Berlin Diaries", he happened to be in Vienna at the eve of invasion. Quotes are too big for the post.

    This is straight ridiculous. It feels like I am reading articles from Der Sturmer :cat:. But wait. I am indeed reading Der Sturmer.

    Could you please provide me with credible links on the actual documents proving your "JUWS DECLARED WAR ON HITLAR. HE DIDNT WANT TO BUT WAS FORCED TO GAS THEM"?

    And please, could you give me links on something else apart from websites that have "HEIL HITLER KILL ALL JEWS" on their homepage?

    This escalated quickly. Its fun how you mentioned Gaddafi. How does the guy who has beaten Benghazi tribes into submission in 70s and sat on their oil pipe had "trid to do something for their own country"? I actually dare you to provide us (the public) with credible (not from Der Sturmer) sources on how life of libyans (particularly eastern tribes) improved under his dictatorship rules?

    Again, the diarhea wave of Der Sturmer, that consists of massive lies from top to bottom. Trying to disprove that is like trying to disprove that earth is not flat.

    Haha, funny how you mentioned this perhaps hoping that I am not fluent in Polish. Robert Michulec is a very infamous and funny author - polish version of Vladimir Rezun. Not one of his claims is having any proper citations, but then, you'd not expect it to be because "JEWS HAVE EATEN ALL THE PROOFS DUH!"

    Because the addendum on Third Partition was SECRET, for fucks sake. It was not known up until it happened. And yes, can you imagine, the Allies declared a war on nazis to fulfill their diplomatic promises on honouring Polish souveregnity.

    It goes like this:

    1)Ahahahaa, these stupid Allies do nothing! We can shit before their faces and they will only smile in return! What a bunch of weaklings and retards! Lets invade Poland, Im sure they will swallow it just as well!

    2)ARGHHHH YOU COWARDS. You dare to attacks us now? IT IS NOT FAIR! You never reciprocate and now you do! How can you be so evil? We just wanted to break in and rob somebody else.

    And I even dunno how can I comment on anything below :cat::cat::cat:
  7. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    I understand there is an interesting argument around WWII and Hitler going on, but please try to return to the topic at hand. You discuss this further in private.
  8. TwoHourMotel

    TwoHourMotel Well-Known Member

    So has any EU country or EU representative come up with an exit strategy? From what I've been exposed to it seems like nobody's talking about any sort of endgame. The entire discussion is framed as, accept the refugees or you're a bigot, with no plan in mind. This is fucking absurd!
  9. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    No wonder the English are having enough of it. The whole EU is turning into an authocratic, anti democratic union quite rapidly. They want to organize an army solely for the European Union. Really?
    If anyone knows history here, then you can see a pattern between the EU and the Delos (athenian) league. They started out as equals but in the meantime one took all the power, thus an alliance became a hegemony.
  10. TwoHourMotel

    TwoHourMotel Well-Known Member

    Can you imagine being an EU soldier forced to fight your own country's army lol what a clusterfuck it will be if the EU army will have a conflict in Europe.
  11. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    And just like in ancient Greece the excuse of that is a much larger country that isn't really that threatening (Persia or in this case, Russia). Oh and guess how the Athenians used the resources and the army? They started wars with the members of their own alliance, making up weak excuses about loyalty (read, they didn't blindly follow the rules that were forced on them).
    Of course I am oversimplifying things. Contemporary Europe and Ancient Greece are hardly similar, but we can only learn from our mistakes through events of the past and I couldn't not notice that the EU is beginning to take a very close path to the latter one.
  12. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Don't be so critical at Europe Army. That could potentially be the most amazing thing that happened in the last, God know how many decades. Without some deeper insight and knowledge I can't say for sure, but it could be amazing for the World and civilization.

    The whole EU is turning (well, not turning, its been like that all along) into autocratic and antidemocratic union because it doesnot have its own army, and is under influence (read, in the hands) of USA/NATO.
    I don't have to tell you how that worked for your country and many others in the World. Blindly fallowing/executing USA political/economical/military interests braking every International law, human right law and spreading misery along the way, without a real say or choice about anything.

    Creating EU army would potentially put an end to that. Brake the EU from the grasp of USA with its NATO dependent influence, and hopefully lead to an long awaited, more natural Berlin-Moscow-Beijing axis, which would in a decade or two be more powerful (economically speaking) and beneficial for everyone, than USA-EU axis ever was all this time.

    Forgot to add: I think that is the whole point of "Brexit". USA fears this and since Britain is a marionette in USA hands (or better say, both are run by the same shadowy people who are calling all the shots) they see Brexit at this time as a opportunity to, if not prevent that, then postpone it at least. Since, I believe it has to happen at some point in time. Its only natural.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2016
  13. TwoHourMotel

    TwoHourMotel Well-Known Member

    So what happens when an EU soldier has to go into his home country and shoot his citizens?
  14. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    I glanced through post but didnot find what this refers to. I don't get it.
    In what context ?
  15. TwoHourMotel

    TwoHourMotel Well-Known Member

    Ok I was going to have a dialogue with you about the logistics of the whole thing and why an EU army would be a tyranny, so I'm gonna approach this from a different angle so you can see what I mean.

    Let's assume the EU gets a competent, strong standing army composed of europeans from all over the continent. The EU mentions that it plans on putting army bases in major cities in Europe, similar to how the US has army bases around the world.

    Now, let's assume a country wants to leave the EU (#brexit), but how are they gonna do it? The moment they "vote" to succeed, the EU just blasts in full force and performs a military coup to gain control of the state. You're giving them the power to do this in all EU states.

    Even if the current EU is good and won't use it's army for evil, you're still giving an institution more power than the sovereign states it's supposedly comprised of. The moment the EU has a better army than any sovereign state in the EU alone, is the moment all EU countries essentially lose all sovereignty in every way but name.

    The EU has delusions of grandeur, lamenting on the past, thinking that the holy roman empire can be made whole again.

    I would understand if this was necessary for safety reasons, at least it could be justified. But really? EU needs more armies and more totalitarianism? Who exactly poses a credible threat to EU to necessitate this? The US army and NATO alone pretty much grantees the freedom of western democracies, without the need of a governmental body that supersedes local governments.

    You're handing over power to people who's necessity is long gone. Kinda like feminists in a way.
  16. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    First of all, that alliance would never happen, there are too many differences among those countries and their interests are also totally different. Secondly, you just admitted that Berlin would be above every European city. Ultimately an army is just a tool, which can always be used for good but also for bad things. Even the idea that the Eu has army would be more than enough to put pressure on every state in the union. As THM explained it, it would inevitably lead to one member of the alliance being above the others and it would certainly mean that EU members would start to lose their independence whether it be about foreign or inner affairs.
  17. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    I don't know. They succeed from the Union and redraw their soldiers from the EU army. Whats the problem ?

    Plus, I assume that that army would be professional model army, not conventional voluntary serving or whatsitcalled.

    Why would they do that ?

    Yeah, kinda like NATO and USA have over EU now ?

    Whats with all the presumptions, that an Union army would be used for internal political/economical affairs ?
    There are more then enough political levels and mechanisms to address and deal with those situations.

    And army is there to ensure safety from external treats and factors, just like NATO alliance is supposedly doing now.

    Can you say the same for NATO ?

    I hear NATO exists cause Baltic states fear of Russia invading them, and NATO is supposedly protecting them from that. Why wouldn't an EU Army be a guarantee to prevent/fight against that ?

    Yeah, kinda like English, French and Germans joining the same Union after the WW2. But that kinda worked.
    Plus, as I said, Army is army and deals with military deals, nothing to do with internal political economical agendas of member countries. Mechanisms for that already exist and nothing would change.

    Like it isn't already. Like Greece has a say in anything, even their own agenda without Berlin over her. Like Bulgaria has a say in EU affairs. Like Romania, Croatia, _________ act on their own...

    Pressure how ? Pressure like "you got to bomb this country because reasons NATO says/imagines/fabricates ? And create this whole migrant chaos.
    Even if those grim presumptions come true, I don't see how is it different than right now under NATO.

    Are you kidding me ? Like its not like that right now...
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2016
  18. Ostarion

    Ostarion Well-Known Member

    Yes I was just about to drop it.

    Do you think USA would allow an independant army in Europe, acting on its own interests? This army will most likely be just part of NATO, receiving command from the USA. The real purpose is probably to cement the idea of a ''United states of Europe'' even further. Also the part about a Berlin-Moscow-Beijing alliance is wishful thinking I fear. The USA has over 50 bases in Germany and 50k soldiers. It's occupied territory in a sense, and they would never let them align with Moscow.

    As for BREXIT I hope it happens. Although the pesimist in me says it's rigged and the Britons won't be allowed to leave even if they vote yes. Just like Greece wasn't allowed to leave.
  19. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Ofc not. Hence - the "Brexit" I think.

    Hopeful, not. But it can be a part of NATO but it cannot and shouldnot just blindly fallow and execute USA interests.
    And NATO is supposed to be an defensive alliance acting only to intervene and prevent direct attacks on one of its members. but that fall apart long ago, much like any other international law, institution, organisations.... Hense this thread, migrant crisis and and Dalai Lama statement.

    Which is a good thing.

    Not necessarily. China is well on the way of finishing "Silk Road" volume 2. Russia is on the rise as well, BRICS is beaming a meaningful organizations and will soon offer an alternative to established, but now corrupt, organisations, puppets in the hands of USA.

    So maybe not so wishful. Especially if Europe brakes out of NATO dependent grasp, and becomes able to make its own decision. Hopefully this migrant crisis will be a wake up call for Europe, if she survives this.

    Whic is exactly why it should have its own Army. And its not supposed to align with Moscow, just to work with Moscow and Beijing like it is working with USA all this time.

    Me to, Even thought I think it would work against what I hope to happen. But, based on personal opinion English are the worst people on the planet and no one wants them, hehe.

    I also think its rigged, but for the exit, not for the stay. For the reason I stated abowe. To cancel or postpone the EU army. Or weaken the idea of its strength for sure, if nothing else.

    Greece wasn't allowed to leave because it is nice to have someone who is forever in depth and you can control and manipulate him with it and receive regular income for decades from his depth paying. Plus, buying an paradise Island or two every few decades for small change is a nice bonus.
    You do know, that Germany offered Grecee to pay of part of its depth with and Island ?

    One little known fact: Upon joining the EU and accepting EURO as currency Greece agreed to hand over (maybe even destroy) its machines for printing their own Drachma currency. So, now, they can't even switch to their currency and start printing it again, even if they want to. Forget about leaving EU. And now, they are slaves for life.
  20. TwoHourMotel

    TwoHourMotel Well-Known Member

    Look dude, I see you keep making comparisons to NATO and EU, saying that NATO is pretty much doing the same thing.

    This is factually incorrect.

    NATO is not a governmental body that wants to control all of Europe. NATO is not the reason Europe is suffering from a migrate crisis. In fact, the migrant crisis is the direct result of EU policies in Europe.

    This EU army is clearly, a power grab. You're giving away your rights as a country to an organization that clearly does not give a shit about the average European, as the migrant crisis will not affect their gated communities and white color jobs.

    You want to give a governmental body that supersedes your own government MORE power. NATO is an alliance, EU is a governing organization the two might be similar on the surface but they're actually very different and serve different goals.

    EU does not need it's own standing army precisely because of NATO.