Dalai Lama on the migrant crisis

Discussion in 'World News & Debates' started by Ostarion, Jun 1, 2016.

  1. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    But you are exactly excusing them, that's exactly what you're doing by constantly denying the problems of Islam with western secular democracy. You keep saying that they are just criminals, terrorists and that Islam has no effect on them. Wrong. Islam is the one of the biggest fuels that gives these people the will to commit these crimes and I have also posted proofs that it's not just a small minority. Yes not everyone is gonna wrap bombs around his chest but I have proved multiple times that statistics state that there is indeed a big sum of people who sympathize with fundementalist literarism of the Quran.

    No, they were Belgian civilians which is even worse. How is that assimilation working out for you?

    Also I am gonna put this one here:
    Edit: It's 17 minutes so just watch it til the end.
    Edit no.2: The so called 'German Angst' is indeed a phenomenon and it would be very dense to deny its effect on Germany's immigration policy. Like seriously, the mayor's opening speech was directly related to some WW2 events and then basically says that you are obliged to welcome every single refugee and do it with a big cheer on your face, otherwise you are a nazi scum. Germans should be proud of their history and shouldn't be bordered down to the worst events in their chapters. Naturally, nazism should serve as a reminder that never again will this happen, but as the video maker put it, isn't today's Germany the exact opposite of Nazi Germany by default? Should you also construct whole policies around your dark past as a form of apology? When will it be finally okay to move out from the shadow of 1933-1945? Imo It's just bullshit to keep this culture of depressing self hate continuing for something that happened 3 generations ago.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2016
  2. enrico.swagolo

    enrico.swagolo Well-Known Member

    You haven't traveled around the world, have you?

    It's a common redneck misconception that we somehow have lives good enough to be compassionate. I have been to many so-called "third world" countries, and there are plenty of organizations, social movements, and simply individuals who give out everything to help others. Just because Fox News isn't showing them to you does not mean they don't exist. Philanthropy is in human nature (though, admittedly, not in mine :cool1: ).

    And social justice is neither a Western, nor a modern invention. It existed in all places at all times.
  3. ZizZizZiz1

    ZizZizZiz1 Well-Known Member

  4. Mognakor

    Mognakor Well-Known Member

    Wouldn't excusing the crimes mean, i somehow deny that these actions are crimes? Having a different view on the root cause doesn't equate to denying the validity of an action qualifying as a crime.

    Islam is nothing but a catalysator and there are plenty others. If Islam is the deciding factor for causing crimes etc., then crime rates etc. should be higher for muslims regarding of other factors like income, social status, environment etc. . Otherwise at best Islam is a factor working together with other factors, at worst it is no factor at all.

    How is neglecting the bottom of society working out for any country? Aren't frenchmen quite famous for setting cars on fire when they get upset?

    Idk how you arrive at this conclusion but it's obviously wrong.
    Idk if you paid attention to the video yourself, if you did you'd have noticed that the person speaking in the beginning is not a mayor, he's the prime minister or gouvernor of Thüringen, a federal state of germany. And he made no attempts to judge anyone based on his attitude towards refugees. What he did is stress the difference between the nazi time and now. Given that the town seems to have been a target far some nazi project, doing so seems fair.

    Ignoring our past would be easier if we didn't have lots of people still sympathizing with the ideology of then. In addition to the original statement made by Alexander Gauland (german politician), regarding Jerome Boateng, which can be seen controversial, Gauland made a new statement. In this he stated the german national football team has too many members with a migrant background. In the light of Mesut Özil's Hajj, he said that it may be acceptable for football player, but it is a problem if someone serving the state (an official e.g.) would do so.

    People like Gauland do not even attempt to seperate between a well integrated muslim and someone falling through the cracks. For them every muslim is an agent against the german state.

    And as those statement increase, so does the need to remind what happens if people follow this mindset.

    The estimate cost of the refugee crisis is an estimate and nothing else, there are other estimates with other conclusions. The one cited is one of the higher ones, afaik.

    The source shown for the claim that the majority of syrian refugees is not syrian doesn't seem to show any relation between what refugees claim to be and what they actually are. What is left out, is the question if syrians are the only people in the world in need of asylum.

    The source shown at 4:00 states that immigrants have bigger problems finding a job than natives (Seriously is this supposed to be a surprise?). But it also states that there is discrimination against children of migrants in the school system which prevents them from achieving higher education at the same rate as natives (and thus prevents them from finding a job). While showing a picture of the article, the video talks about something else.

    Is it a surprise that a discussion begins when sending troops to a foreign country, when in the past this was directly related to senseless bloodshed and millions of dead people? And not just in WW2, but also in WW1. And many thousands in the german-french war of 1870. We germans aren't used to war anymore and imo, no country ever should be used to war, even more if you are being the aggressor. It would be worrysome if a country accepts going to war without even discussing about it.

    Also worth noting is that the video doesn't even try to provide any proof "German Angst" being the cause for those actions, and not something else.t

    If you want to talk about stuff after 5:00, i suggest to post your points. If you ignore my response to the video, as you did with the last, i will stop bothering to watch even the first five minutes of any subsequent video posted by you.

  5. Blarrg

    Blarrg Well-Known Member

    Try reading more carefully, you have a serious problem with strawmanning.

    Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
  6. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    Denying the root cause of the problem is like putting this whole thing under a rug. It will never get solved until people start having a discussion about Islam and point out its flaws.
    If Islam is *just* a catalyzator then how come 99% every terror attack is committed by people of that religion and I really doubt that they are committing crimes just because they are poor and uneducated. How come you don't hear about other ethnicities making trouble in Germany who are also living under tough conditions like Ukrainians for example? Further more rich muslims aren't really acting any better, whether it be in Germany, UAE or Saudi Arabia, they are just not the ones directly committing these crimes, they are just funding it, see Saudi Arabia funding ISIS.
    They choose to be neglected by refusing to assimilate and choosing to live in their ghetto-like districts with other muslims. It's not like they are being intentionally deported there by the German government.

    Quite of a stretch, considering that the nazis were the agressors in WW2 while it is clearly not the case with the migrant crisis.
    Which is undeniably true.
    So instead, we should take the other extreme route and be so tolerant that it costs our economy, culture and overall stability of our country?
    Bit of an extreme statement, but he has a point nonetheless. Much depends on the importance of said function but how can someone represent Germany when someone isn't identifying himself/herself as a German? Also time should be added as a factor. They shouldn't let someone be a stateman if he just recieved his/her citizenship, because what would he know about a country and its politics when he/she didn't even live there 10 years ago.

    Unfortunately events like Molenbeek reinforces his opinion.
    I don't think that even the most extreme right winger in Germany is thinking of genocide, it is most likely about the deportation of illegal aliens and a country has every right to do that. By the way Merkel has kinda started doing it, so is she Hitler now?
    Your theory about them boosting the german economy doesn't hold water, that is for sure.
    What does it matter what they claim to be? Do you really think they would admit to a border guard so openly that they aren't actually refugees? They refused to even give their date of birth, not to mention country of origin. Even after all these months your naivety amuses me sometimes.
    So we should just turn Germany into a big refugee camp? No, people have a right to live, but no one has the right to live under better circumstances by default and why would anyone want to help these people when they are damaging for Europe in pretty much every way imaginable. I am pretty certain much less people would have a beef with them if they wouldn't behave like vicious barbarians and entitled kids demanding welfare.
    Of course they are gonna get discriminated when you don't know how to speak a word in German and because your dad turns you into a religious fanatic. And btw kids are discriminatory by default, for much less things, they always pick someone that stands out because of a certain trait or physical appareance, so it's not something that should have that big of an effect, really because it happens all the times in schools. Not saying that it isn't a problem but it shouldn't have a long term effect.
    Wars will always be waged, there is no point in whining about it, throughout history people have waged wars for countless reasons and countless times. It is in the very nature of humans, something that can't be changed. Besides, it's not like Germany sent a full army into Afghanistan, I bet it's about a few troops and that's it.
    Didn't you just admit a line later that you didn't watch the whole video? Then why are you complaining?
    I did provide my points in the previous post, I have nothing more to add.

    And you are telling this to a guy who is a history student? Really? Look, history should never be neglected and I wholeheartedly agree with it but there is a difference between analyzing historical events, searching for the main reasons, various cause and trying to answer with the help of those to nowadays' political problems and between senselessly clinging to a bygone age to shove certain (in this case, regressive leftist) political views down on other people's throats and demonizing every other ideology that is conservative or more right-leaning.
  7. Ostarion

    Ostarion Well-Known Member

    Good picture. We should quickly deal with this crisis before muslim communities start demanding their own independant Islam state from what wasn't originally their territory. In worst case scenario getting backed by Murica and your country bombed if you refuse to comply with their demands.

    Atleast, that's what history is telling me.
  8. Mognakor

    Mognakor Well-Known Member

    Which still needs to be prooved.

    Poor, uneducated and played by forces using this factor for their benefits.

    The majority of all islamic terrorists originate from the middle east. And aside from being muslims they share other traits. Tribal culture, destabilized countries, living in a wartorn country or next to it for most of their lives.

    And probably many other factors.

    Because noone focuses on those ethnicities. If you want to find crimes commited by other migrants, i suggest researching forced prostitution and human trafficking in western europe.

    You mean like the USA funded Al-Qaeda?

    Weren't you talking about belgium? People trying to find familiar faces in a foreign place is nothing but a natural reaction. Afaik there is even a meme about german people trying to find other germans on vacation.

    Less of a stretch than your interpretation.

    The national football team, is made from the best players of german nationality. Excluding someone from the team because of his skin color or the nationality of his ancestors would be nothing but racism.

    Can you remind where i said that?

    And i'd really love to see you trying to define what my culture is like, i'm bavarian if that helps. And then tell me how that culture is not compatible with Islam.

    First of all, you don't receive your citizenship right when you enter germany. Idk the official restrictions, but in the best case it probably still takes at least one year and then it's someone who is smart enough to learn german and prepare for the integration test within that time. Thats not your typical terrorist.

    Second, being a muslim doesn't equate to not identifying with germany. Extreme right-wingers also don't identify with germany, despite being born here.

    So i highly integrated muslim or national football player is still likely to host terrorists? Interesting.

    Idk if i should laugh or cry about comparing Merkel to Hitler on the basis of the german executive adhering the law.

    Thinking that there is noone in germany thinking of genocide is naive. Even when ignoring those who "merely" suggest reactivating Ausschwitz on social media, we are still left with those guys: NSU

    Estimates for refugees being able to carry themselves suggest 2020 to 2025 which coincides with the time when the baby boomers will go into pension.

    It matters if the source doesn't support what you are talking about.

    Nice strawman you got there.

    If you don't speak a word german, there is no need to discriminate against you because you won't achieve good enough marks to be allowed into higher education. And neither i nor the source mentioned other kids as the source of discrimination.

    Guess what? A magazine has got to fill its pages. If something happens for the first time in 60 years, it sure deserves to be talked about. I thought as someone who studies history you'd know the importance of talking about things.

    A well crafted video would have given a source for the presumption it is based on or at least mentioned that it will provide proof later on. Besides, if the video actually provided proof, you'd have given me a timemark to proove me wrong.

    I doubt someone who speaks out against taking in refugees in a proper way would receive a heavy backlash. But it's a fact that those speaking out against refugees are at least partly racist.
  9. TwoHourMotel

    TwoHourMotel Well-Known Member

    Just gonna leave this here

    ICM Poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers

    NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified

    Channel Four (2006): 31% of younger British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified compared to 14% of those over 45.
    http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/publications/living apart together - jan 07.pdf

    People-Press: 31% of Turks support suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq.

    YNet: One third of Palestinians (32%) supported the slaughter of a Jewish family, including the children:

    World Public Opinion: 83% of Egyptians approve of attacks on American troops.
    26% of Indonesians approve of attacks on American troops.
    26% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on American troops.
    68% of Moroccans approve of attacks on American troops.
    90% of Palestinians approve of attacks on American troops.
    72% of Jordanians approve of attacks on American troops.
    52% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (39% oppose)
    A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on American troops.
    About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.

    World Public Opinion (2009): 30% of Palestinians support attacks on American civilians working in Muslim countries. 24% support the murder of Americans on U.S. soil.
    Only 74% of Turks and 55% of Pakistanis disapprove of terror attacks against civilians on U.S. soil.

    Pew Research (2010): 55% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hezbollah
    30% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hezbollah
    45% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hezbollah (26% negative)
    43% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hezbollah (30% negative)

    Pew Research (2010): 60% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hamas (34% negative).
    49% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hamas (48% negative)
    49% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hamas (25% negative)
    39% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hamas (33% negative)

    Pew Research (2010): 15% of Indonesians believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
    34% of Nigerian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.

    16% of young Muslims in Belgium state terrorism is "acceptable".

    Populus Poll (2006): 12% of young Muslims in Britain (and 12% overall) believe that suicide attacks against civilians in Britain can be justified. 1 in 4 support suicide attacks against British troops.

    Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
    35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
    42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
    22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
    29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).

    Pew Research (2011): 8% of Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (81% never).
    28% of Egyptian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (38% never).

    Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified

    27% of British Muslims do not support the deportation of Islamic extremists preaching violence and hate.

    Federation of Student Islamic Societies: About 1 in 5 Muslim students in Britain (18%) would not report a fellow Muslim planning a terror attack.

    ICM Poll: 25% of British Muslims disagree that a Muslim has an obligation to report terrorists to police.

    Populus Poll (2006): 16% of British Muslims believe suicide attacks against Israelis are justified.
    37% believe Jews in Britain are a "legitimate target".

    World Public Opinion: Majorities in Egypt (63%) and Libya (61%) supported the 9/11/2012 attacks against American embassies, including Benghazi.

    Pew Research (2013): At least 1 in 4 Muslims do not reject violence against civilians (study did not distinguish between those who believe it is partially justified and never justified).

    Pew Research (2013): 15% of Muslims in Turkey support suicide bombings (also 11% in Kosovo, 26% in Malaysia and 26% in Bangladesh).

    PCPO (2014): 89% of Palestinians support Hamas and other terrorists firing rockets at Israeli civilians.

    Pew Research (2013): Only 57% of Muslims worldwide disapprove of al-Qaeda. Only 51% disapprove of the Taliban. 13% support both groups and 1 in 4 refuse to say.

    BBC Radio (2015): 45% of British Muslims agree that clerics preaching violence against the West represent "mainstream Islam".

    Palestinian Center for Political Research (2015): 74% of Palestinians support Hamas terror attacks.

    Pew Research (2014): 47% of Bangladeshi Muslims says suicide bombings and violence are justified to "defend Islam". 1 in 4 believed the same in Tanzania and Egypt. 1 in 5 Muslims in the 'moderate' countries of Turkey and Malaysia.

    The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 19% of Muslim-Americans say that violence is justified in order to make Sharia the law in the United States (66% disagree).

    The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 25% of Muslim-Americans say that violence against Americans in the United States is justified as part of the "global Jihad (64% disagree).

    The Sun (2015: Following Nov. 2015 attacks in Paris, 1 in 4 young Muslims in Britain (and 1 in 5 overall) said they sympathize with those who fight for ISIS.

    ICM (2016): 2 in 3 Muslims in Britain would not report terror plot to police.
  10. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    What? That Islam is a very violent religion that needs reform to adapt into today's secular societies? That is already proven and it should be obvious to pretty much everyone. We have posted tons of proofs, me and the other posters here that you so direly ask for yet on the other hand you haven't posted any proof to back up YOUR claims whatsoever you just post links to attack right wingers but not to back up your own claims. Because it's just your opinion, your own world view or the view that the leftist political and social parties want you to swallow.

    Well take a look at that big list that THM posted. Are you really that sure that all of those people are on the bottom of society? That all of them are uneducated with a minimum wage? Who is generalizing know?
    You can twist it in whatever way you want but the middle east is the center and the birthplace of Islam, they are the ones representing the *true* faith, not Malaysia or Singapore.

    They don't commit terror attacks for one, and they aren't driven by ideologies to do those stuff so you really are comparing apples to oranges. Also btw, guess which countries are the biggest supporters of slavery and human trafficking? The gulf sates!
    That wasn't my point and it wasn't the topic of debate either. You were saying that muslims who commit crimes are all poor, uneducated and brainwashed and I responded to listing the royal family of Saudi Arabia and Qatar who openly fund terrorists. Of course USA isn't in any way better but that doesn't give a pass to muslims, further more this wasn't the topic, so I don't know why have you decided to hop on against Americans so randomly.
    There is a difference between trying to find your own cultural and ethnic group and forcing your own traditions and culture upon the majority, like demanding sharia courts or beating women up for not wearing burkas.
    Oh really, elaborate?

    That doesn't make his statement any less true.

    By criticizing Merkel that she *gasp* dares to return some migrants, for one. There were also a bunch of other cases when you clearly propagated regressive leftist ideologies in the other migrant thread that is closed.
    European values like democracy and secular governments are pretty much incompatible with Islam by default for a starting point.

  11. Ostarion

    Ostarion Well-Known Member

    Just going to leave a few Churchill quotes here:

    "Should Germany merchandise (do business) again in the next 50 years we have led this war (WW1) in vain." - Winston Churchill in The Times (1919)

    "We will force this war upon Hitler, if he wants it or not." - Winston Churchill (1936 broadcast)

    "Germany becomes too powerful. We have to crush it." - Winston Churchill (November 1936 speaking to US - General Robert E. Wood)

    "This war is an English war and its goal is the destruction of Germany." - Winston Churchill (- Autumn 1939 broadcast)

    What a nice guy, truly a hero.

    Also another picture from 1933: https://socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/judea_declares_war_on_germany.jpg
  12. Z01d

    Z01d Well-Known Member


    As far as I know, the war started with the invasion of poland. That Hitler was preparing for war was an open secret.
    At least Churchill did something instead of jerking off like Chamberlain.
    You could debate the causes for ww1 and it's conclusion in ww2 but debating the question of the aggressor role for ww2 is stupid.
  13. TwoHourMotel

    TwoHourMotel Well-Known Member

    Political Islam Explained by Bill Warner
  14. Ostarion

    Ostarion Well-Known Member

    Hitler was actually the only one making peace proposals. Not only peace proposals but a proposal for the disarmament of nations. He was the only one who wanted a diplomatic solution. Now yes, he was gearing up but so was everyone else. Do you expect him to just not build up a military when everyone made their intentions clear?

    He did invade Poland. But the Poles were causing mischief around the border and were abusing German minorities. These German minorities were living in what used to be German territory before and during WW1. Hitler wanted the Poles to atleast stop the abuse, or in best case have the lands returned to Germany. After all diplomacy failed he attacked. In 1940 he again made a proposal for peace when he secured this territory. Which of course, was ignored. WW2 could have easily been avoided, and it wasn't Hitlers fault for that.
  15. Z01d

    Z01d Well-Known Member

    It was clear from the beginning that Hitler wanted war. It was written in "Mein Kampf" and he started the arms race. He even made a pact with Stalin to split Poland between them.
  16. TwoHourMotel

    TwoHourMotel Well-Known Member

    We really arguing that Hitler dindu nuffin wrong lmao
  17. Ostarion

    Ostarion Well-Known Member

    I know that. If he had his way he'd also kill Slavic people and Indians. I never denied this and it isn't the point. But even if he wrote this in his book, that doesn't mean a guy would lead a nation to an impossible war. The people also wouldn't follow him if they thought he was batshit evil. Anyway this is way off-topic. I'm just going to leave a bunch of links and you can decide for yourself. I know this is something that will end in a disagreement anyway.






    This is all off topic anyway. Let's discuss the real topic:


    Also, still waiting for someone to explain how refugees are good for economy, when only 500 managed to find a job in Sweden.
  18. Z01d

    Z01d Well-Known Member

    The thing is that the war was not impossible and people were yearning for a revenge for the Versailles treaty. The war became impossible when he tried to fight the russians at the same time as the british and when the US joined.

    Back to the topic: As said before multiple times, refugees could be a way to compensate for the change in demography in the next decades. Even now a lot of jobs are open because the companies can't find people. This won't be noticeable in the next few years but in maybe 10 to 20.
  19. Arcana_Arcanus

    Arcana_Arcanus Well-Known Member

    u w0t m8. From day 1 of coming to power NSDAP worked hard to ruin status quo and to bring down Versailles (which was made precisely for the purpose of keeping status quo). Rearmament went up at full throttle because of it, and also because it was stated clearly in Hossbach Memorandum that Reich's roadmap is 1)Unite "German world" at all costs; 2)Subdue and enslave "weak states" that didn't have a right to exist because of the Law of the Strength; 3)Finally, in late 1940s, being 100% prepared lead an assault on West, and then on East.

    All these "calls for peace" were a charade directed at confusing the media whilst hiding de facto goals.

    The tales of "mah ethic russ..oh! germans being abused by evil neighbours we must DEFEND THEM by invading the country!!" are a story too old. The hysteria and outrage was carefully crafted and executed by german state media in a very professional manner. And even though almost noone beyond the german border believed them, it 1)still sown the seeds of a doubt and confusion; 2)created a more or less working casus beli for a unilateral action.

    I think it is best described in a priceless account of William Shirer, american journalist that worked inside Nazi Germany up until late 1941.

    Wait! I heard it somewhere...Crimea!
    But seriously, I suggest you all to read this book, its really awesome.
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
  20. Ostarion

    Ostarion Well-Known Member

    You do know status quo means preserving the current state? Versailles was anything but that. Germany lost large swaths of territory, was forbidden of having a large army and got destroyed economically. Everyone knew it was unfair to Germans, and the conditions in the country were a big reason for the rise of Hitler. Versailles also promised Israel to the Jews via the Balfour declaration. This was also the first point when Germany has started to become anti-semitic. The Balfour agreement (signed by lord Balfour on behalf of UK) said that jews are to get Israel under the condition USA enters the war on UK's side. Whitout USA, UK would have lost. The USA, just like Palestine, didn't have anything to do in this war. So the Germans knew the jews were responsible for USA entering the war and their subsequent defeat. Versailles was anything but keping the status quo. And it's easy to say the peace offers were bogus, when nobody else even responded to them.

    I have no doubt this was heavily propagandized by the Germans. But facts are facts. Did you even read the links I posted? Here's a quote:

    "Poland wants war with Germany and Germany will not be able to avoid it even if she wants to." (Polish Marshal Rydz-Smigly as reported in the Daily Mail, August 6th, 1939)