Coup d'etat in Turkey

Discussion in 'World News & Debates' started by Eutychius, Jul 15, 2016.

  1. Mognakor

    Mognakor Well-Known Member

    The most likely event is that Erdogan expected the coup and simply let them run into an open knife, while already planning how to make the most of it.
  2. LePillow

    LePillow Active Member

    How convenient for the survivors of the "coup".
  3. Ostarion

    Ostarion Well-Known Member

  4. Amiscar

    Amiscar Well-Known Member

    I have to agree with Nal-Ra in this one. A army used to coups doing such a amateur job? I watched it all live. It was indeed strange. Failure to capture Erdogan (that was on vacation) in Turkey's airspace even with F-16 that were busy shooting civilians, letting him land on the airport and giving a speech to the entire country (no media blackout). 2500 judges removed from office in the next day. Soldiers from both sides stating they didnt know there was a coup going on. I dont buy it.
  5. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    Plausible, even though I'm inclined to believe that Erdogan wasn't 100% prepared for it. He probably had an idea of a conspiracy happening within the army ranks, but not a definite outline.

    I don't see why not. Is there some special coup training that armies go through so they are prepared to be up for the task?

    The first one I can tell you is probable due to lack of communication. They most likely lacked the orchestration to get Erdogan while flying back and they had to deal with massive enraged mobs.

    The second one is more peculiar, even though Turkey did block off a lot of the social media at the time.

    Just Erdogan exploiting the situation. He holds legitimate charges against them, but all of them unfounded as he has provided zero proof of his claims in their involvement.

    Albeit, it is strange that he removed them but detained comparatively few of them. It would make sense that conspirators would all be held for trials. Very few details are known.

    The main conspirators seem to be colonels of the Turkish military. They probably didn't want possible reactions from non-consenting soldiers so they lied about it to order them around more effectively. And many of them were consenting, given they actually fired upon the crowd in later moments killing 42 civilians and injuring hundreds more. The non-consenting soldiers were probably military conscripts (obligatory in Turkey for males) who aren't professional soldiers and would be prone to desert.

    I see a lot of buzz around the event, even comparing it to the Reichstag fire in 1933:

    I find this part to hold the most truth:

    This is definitely what I feel about the coup now. It was a blatant failure, but Erdogan must have been aware of something in a way he was able to muster a defense of sorts and now he exploits the situation to become even more oppressive.

    Until more actual evidence comes up for either side, this remains the most probable version of the events.

    EDIT: Posting the article I posted on the previous page to be more readily available:
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2016
  6. ToT712

    ToT712 Well-Known Member

    No, but with such a rich history of coups, I think they could have nailed the basics first.
    I just find it extremely suspicious that Erdogan gets rid of all opposition in power so soon after the attempt, without even evidence that they were affiliated.
  7. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    It's not like former conspirators are behind this one. Not every Turkish coup is executed by the same people, so being successful is really not that trivial.

    Suspicious? Erdogan is a well-known suppressor of human rights and free speech. I am not the slightest surprised by his rush to condemn anyone who "opposes" him. It's not like he wants evidence to act in vengeance.

    The point is however that if we are going to condemn Erdogan for staging the coup we'd need to demonstrate a superior behaviour which is actually looking for evidence. Right now it just seems he is exploiting a situation which he was ready to quell.
  8. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Oh, scared that this might go into another circle jerking again, but... Serbs doing genocide and ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, while Albanian number rise and the Serbs numbers diminish. Thats some epic ethnic cleansing.

    And you keep proving me right with each new World event.

    Its not so much believing in conspiracy theories, as in not believing in the official story, when it obviously doesn't hold water, and has more holes than Swiss cheese.

    Ofc it was staged.

    NO. This is the problem.
    You take official government statement, official stories, whatever, as the truth, evidence and a fact, while I don't.
    I look at the events, look at the aftermath and if I see mayor flaws and holes and then use logic and reasoning to question them at least.

    If I was a jerk like you and buggs bunny guy, when you said,
    , I could have said, Do you have any proof of that ? While you didnot look for proof of that, like you asked from me, you took that as the truth and evidence... If its on the news its must be true...


    I know thats what I said
    Its all about time, if you are serious about not failing at it.
    Especially in modern times with all the phone, social networks and connections.

    If you do it right, yes.
    If you start by capturing state institutions which call the shots in state apparatus. If you deny the police from acting. If you capture institutions that control the internet, facetube, twitter, block the communication.
    Not airporsts and bridges, you don't screem, "hey, we are starting a coup", you better get ready.

    And this is epic also,
    Its precious how you take some event and call that a proof for some other event. How can an even in another place, in another time, be a proof for anything , is beyond me...

    Major government institution. State aparatus institutions. Again you fail to read properly.
    You don't stop police from reacting, you don't stop people in charge of the state from calling the shots, you don't block comunication at the bridges.

    You said this after he just dominantly won the elections few months ago.
    And after saying people went out and risked their lives for a very unpopular president.
    Do you even stop and think about what you say ?

    You really didnot read anything.
    Funny how one day you have no idea about the coup comming, and the next day you have all the participants and planners. Even well outside of the military, like 2500 court judges...

    Its OK.
    You are forgiven, my child.
    (waves his arm slowely over the boys head)

    Until CNN issues an official release AKA the truth, we will never know for sure.
  9. Ostarion

    Ostarion Well-Known Member

  10. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    Lies and slander. I dare you to post where I said that.

    Oh wait, I did dare you to post evidence of what you will claim preemptively and yet you still didn't provide it.

    I don't, but in the eyes of a person who decides what he wants to believe before he faces facts, I cannot do much to change it. I mean, would you even be interested in the truth if it doesn't follow your own version of the story?
    You have already proven you are willing to lie in order to make a point.

    Not quite.

    Tinfoil hat mode: ON

    I'm afraid not.

    Here's what happens: You are presented with facts that we know of and are published by official sources and you deny all of them because it doesn't suit your story. Finding "holes" is an arbitrary activity, you are doing it for the sake of it. And I'm not talking about the coup specifically.

    This is especially true when you are not qualified to really tell people how it "ought to have been done". The example of 9/11: You are not a physicist nor an engineer. Since when does your idea of what "seems wrong" holds the same water as established opinions from experts?

    Oh right, they are "official" so they are spreading propaganda and they were all paid by the government. What a joke.

    Oh no, Raptor guy and Bunny guy responded to poor Nal-Ra with some legitimate arguments and logical conclusions. They are such jerks for trying to express their opinion based on empirical data. They are totally being jerks despite the fact poor Nal-Ra is the only person right here who swings insults left and right.

    Yes, there is proof of that. Eye witnesses and participants in the event that confirm it happened. Do you really need me to explain to you how facts from official sources get their credibility?
    Especially when debatable statements such as Erdogan blaming Gulen are not presented as facts precisely because they lack evidence.

    Says who?
    Who are you to dictate what's important or not? Are you the fact police of the internet? Are you a historian? Are you a military expert? Why do you feel entitled to your version of the story being held at a higher pedestal than official facts? What have you done to earn this status?

    This is precisely why time is not imperative to success. Mass communication and the internet are easily accessible 24/7 (unless someone disrupts it, which Turkey did in the case of social media). How is a coup executed at night and a coup executed in the morning going to make a difference in that?

    First of all, this has absolutely nothing to do with the time. These things can be done during the day as well. So the timing argument falls flat.

    Second, they bombed the parliament. The fact they didn't capture state officials could easily be incompetence and inability to do so.

    Third, blocking media and especially the internet is extremely difficult. Especially in a free market economy where many of these are private and not owned by the government. How do you plan to shut down the internet of the entire country with that manpower?

    And fourth, I already explained why bridges and airports are important. It all depends on the plan and apparently this plan was just weak to begin with.

    I do not, you just didn't understand what I said.

    I do not bring up another coup to prove this coup was real, I bring up a coup executed in the morning while failing to kill the president and yet still succeeding.

    This event debunks 3 of your claims:
    1) That coups should happen when people are sleeping in order to succeed
    2) That killing or capturing the president is necessary for a coup to succeed
    3)That a small part of the military with relatively small manpower could not succeed

    In other words, my example of this event serves as a testament to the fallacy of your claims and shows you are obviously not a coup expert, therefore your intuition of what "feels" right isn't necessarily on point.

    No, you said "major institutions" not "major government institutions" or "state apparatus institutions". Stop lying just to make an petty jab at my reading comprehension.

    The last one doesn't make sense considering the context of what you wrote.

    The rest is just presumptuous thinking. So stopping the entirety of police force and halting the entire body of government is a piece of cake and it takes no hesitation to think about doing them, right?

    The ideal scenario would be for the coup participants to actually move swiftly and efficiently before the police of established government is able to react. Sacrificing resources, time and effort to subjugate them during the coup would most likely cause way more trouble.

    And it's not like this coup couldn't have gone better with just a better overall execution, pointing out these details misses the point of why this coup failed. Especially since Erdogan seems to have been prepared to anticipate it.

    The epitome of lacking the knowledge, yet speaking about it.

    First of all, the people who got out of their houses did it to protect democracy and oppose a possible military junta. They didn't do it for Erdogan specifically. Stop conflating things because they are tangent. Learn how to differentiate them.

    Second, Erdogan has an immensely strong opposition within Turkey. If you look Turkey's polls by region, you'll see that areas where more educated and secular people live (Istanbul, Izmir and in general western Anatolia) which is what I mentioned, the person who got the most votes there is İhsanoğlu or it ended up as a very close race between the two, with either the one or the other getting the lead eventually.,_2014

    Third, there were suspicions of electoral fraud during the elections to favour Erdogan due to power outages in various regions of the country midst of the election. Add the fact that much of the media was heavily biased towards Erdogan as he is essentially ruling over them, and you have a completely unrepresentative election about what the country believes in general.

    That post _supa_ posted with a Steam conversation was with Frokni who is Turkish himself. I told you, the number 1 place where accusations towards Erdogan are thrown calling him a Sultan wannabe is Turkey.

    I did, but apparently you didn't.

    Seizure of a state BY the military or other elites within the state apparatus, not the seizure OF state apparatus.

    Given that definition, the only prerequisite for a coup is overthrowing the government in some way. It doesn't matter how you will do it or what building you will capture to do it.
    Why do I even have to explain this to a full-grown adult (I presume)?

    I understand English is not your native language so you are prone to mistakes, but a) this does not justify basic mistakes, most of us here aren't native English speakers either and b) you are quick to insult people on their reading comprehension and understanding when the fault actually lies with you.

    That's the entire point, Erdogan most likely expected the coup and acted swiftly to take advantage of the situation.

    You have been talking about Erdogan staging the coup and being a false flag attack, not knowing about it while being real and then letting it happen so he can take advantage of it.

    If you want to talk to me from a point of intellectual authority and write in this laughable condescending tone, do something that makes you deserve it.

    Firstly, why CNN? Oh right, in your distorted view of the world, "official sources" are just famous news channels. Famous American news channels, in fact. It's not like other legitimate sources exist, am I right boys?

    Secondly, I said evidence. Evidence doesn't necessarily come from mainstream journalism, that's why research and people looking at data examine these things. And you are not one of them.
    However, the most likely place to find the newly-found evidence that will reveal the truth is in fact mainstream media.

    I already posted one article that seems pretty "western" and mainstream to me and has presented the possibility of a false flag attack. Ostarion and others here have posted numerous other articles criticizing Erdogan and pointing out several suspicions, all of them "western" and mainstream as well.

    You only use them when it's convenient for you and handwave the rest. My article explaining why the coup failed without making additional assumptions? You didn't even quote it.

    If we are going to have an intellectually honest discussion, make sure you evaluate properly because at this point we aren't even arguing the point, but your poor interpretation of what I said and what I believe about the situation.

    On an unrelated note, here is what CNN actually says about Erdogan's activities:
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2016
  11. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    I find it hilarious that this Nal-ra guy is constantly talking about how our sources are biased and paid by the government but I have never actually seen him posting his sources? I mean surely if they are that superior then he would constantly cite them,right?
    Btw, a lot of 'official' sources claim or at least have some presumptions that it might have been just a show, too, so it isn't just related to some conspiracy theory 'experts' like our fellow here.
  12. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Oh, even better. So, you agree that there wasn't ethnic cleansing and genocide and that Yugoslavia was bombed and terrorized for 80 days by North Atlantic Terrorist Organisation because of lies. Great.

    If its tinfoil hat mode ON, when I don't believe that a terrorist can jump in a plane cock-pit for the first time in his life and drive a plane, especially with a pin point precision and hit a building, then yes, tinfoil hat mode ON.
    How many people can see the cockpit for the first time and succesfully drive a plane. Just one - John McClaine, right. There were at least 3 John McClains that day, and they were all terrorists.

    If I don't believe that an approaching plane that doesn't respond to the tower command from the airport is not be taken down by the state defense, not once, not twice, but at least 3 times, then yes, tinfoil hat mode ON.

    If I don't believe that 2 extremely tall buildings can both crash on itself straight down, without tipping sideways and collapsing on surrounding building, when being demolished from the top, then yes, tinfoil hat mode ON.

    You wanted sources for my opinion !?
    You wanted proof for my opinion !?
    Are you even sane ?

    An eye withes ? An eye withes inside a millitary base when the coup starts and lower ranking officers capture their general and held him hostage, there was an eye withes seeing that ?
    Whats next ? People walking in Area 51 and checking out whats being done there ?
    Who was he ? Whats his name ? What was he doing there ?

    Dude, you are comparing something from 50 years ago, in different era, different technology, different everything, and an event in some tiny micro state with a massive states where many cities are bigger than the entire state compared... I really don't know what to say about that...

    You are good at debunking things you think I think, but not so good at what I really think

    Yeah, people stopped the military to protect democracy, and military started the coup to stop the braking of human rights, repression, dictatorship and to protect the democracy.

    Ofc, they were protecting him personally, they could not even spell democracy, forget about knowing what it is...

    No shit Sherlock.

    No, thats what you think that I thought.

    Thats exactly what I though. That there were some parts in the millitary that weren't pro-coup , informed Erdogan about the intentions and in an agreement with him, acted out like they are for the coup and involved in the coup, but they were really doing nothing. Thats why it all went soo sloopy, half-assed, amateurish...
    That's what I thought when I said staged.

    I was right. I think I deserved it.


    Who is "our" here ? Is there a group of you and Euticlus is just voicing opinions for the entire group ? Who is in that group ?

    Sources of my opinion. I don't know... My brain ?

    All of this coming after its pretty clear I was right the whole time.. Shameless.

    And there were some who agreed with me, so think about before insulting me, maybe they might feel insulted, too
  13. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    Not agreeing with one doesn't mean I support the other. It's this flawed view of the world in black and white that makes you evaluate situations incorrectly. Your entire vision of the truth is polarized.

    Let me tell you something: There are no good guys in war. You can't use your logic to deduce who supports whom because truth ultimately resists simplicity.

    Are you sane?

    Another fundamental flaw of your mentality. "It's my opinion, so it doesn't need backing with evidence". That's not how opinions work. Believing in Santa Claus is also an opinion. The point is having calculated, sophisticated opinions a.k.a. opinions that are supported by facts that give them credit.

    You can't believe in whatever you want just because. That's not how scientific research works. And before you jump on the excuse of "I'm not a scientist", you are already defying other people who are scientists based on your opinion.

    Yes. Eye-witness doesn't mean it's a civilian, it could be anyone who can attest to the event. Someone who has seen it and many people did, either soldiers or officials.

    a) There are some very obvious reasons for why an eye-witness' name is not revealed in public. I'll let you figure out why.
    b) He was doing his job there, most likely.

    I'm not comparing per se, that's what I said. I just proved that the requirements you proposed for a successful military coup are extremely suggestive and don't necessarily reflect reality. A coup is a coup and your points are really irrelevant to many of the factors you state here.

    No, I debunked your assumptions quite clearly.

    The first statement, "higher chance" demolishes your premise. If it's just a matter of a "higher chance" then the time of the coup was never going to be prohibitive and it's not a legitimate argument that shows the coup was staged. So your initial claim is wrong.

    The second one, I just told you that a coup succeeded before without capturing or killing the president. How can your argument be imperative or valid as a rule of coups when there is already an example that shows it's not necessary. Imposing power doesn't necessarily mean to kill the president. It helps, but it's not some sort of law coup plotters should follow. Hence (once again) your initial argument that states this as a reason this coup was staged is wrong as well.

    And the third, "pure logic and common sense"? So I guess the coup that I mentioned was an irrational, unnatural anomaly that has never happened again in history, right? Every other coup was done by hordes of soldiers? How can you even claim this is logical or rational if you don't even have a point of reference to compare?

    That's true, but the point is that common people would still prefer to talk via the ballots and lawful methods. Disposing of the president with violence isn't what the average person would want, especially when it's done by the military which could install a junta.

    You are perpetuating your wrong views. I gave you facts that show Erdogan's opposition is huge. How the hell are most people going to sacrifice their lives for him? Not all Turks are Erdogan supporters, is that so hard to comprehend?

    And I like this ridiculous assumption of yours: "they could not even spell democracy". So Turks are (in general) uneducated and "barbaric" in your view? Have ever even taken a close look at Turkey?

    The flip-flop is pretty strong in here.

    Let me quote you:

    Unless I'm so bad at English that I can't even read anymore, this statement of yours pretty much states that you believe the coup was staged. The argument given here is the coup was real, but Erdogan saw it coming so he could repel it. Therefore it wasn't staged or fake.

    Again, quoting you:

    Please, enlighten me, how is this not implying you believed the coup was fake and staged (by the actual definition of the word). Why would you waste your time arguing the very fundamentals of a coup if you really believed it was real?
    I mean, that was the whole idea, arguing whether it was real. If you agreed it was real all along, then what was all the fuss about? What have we been arguing?

    Not quite.

    Why does it occur to me that you just took a full 180 degree turn from your initial position.

    I think you misquoted me there, it was Petique's post.

    OT: The 9/11 was nothing but a reference and irrelevant to the main point here. This thread is not a place to argue about it. If anyone wants to discuss it, he's free to open a new thread.

    And by the way Nal-Ra, just a side-note, I didn't use the 2nd law of thermodynamics to explain why the building fell vertically, I brought up other points, including the Lagrangian formalism for classical mechanics.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2016
  14. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    You either believe it or you don't. Or you could be unsure, but...
    Did you support it or not doesn't interest me now.

    yes it is.

    No its not.

    It is supported by facts, though. Facts which show that the whole thing went pretty clumsy, sloppy, amateurish, with mayor mistakes in steps taken if they were really serious about it.

    Well, if those were military members then they are involved in the act, and can't really be called an eye-witness.
    Regardless. What you have to believe that is not what I would call - a proof.
    Its not like its totally impossible that, if the whole thing was real, that that general was in fact leading the whole thing but they created this story of how he is captured and has nothing to do with it, so that he could escape Erdogans wrath and not be held guilty, if the whole thing fails. Its not like that totally impossible.

    Different time, different era, different everything. But It did resulted in a change of power.
    This thing looks more like a putsch than a coup, but whatever. Lets focus on was it fake or not.

    You are starting to lose it here, going from most of people to all of people and making generalizations. When I said they couldnot eve spell, I meant preciselly on those who rushed to the tanks to "protect" the democracy, ending up in lunching the soldiers with belts, like barbarians and even beheading one, in brought day light.
    For those I doubt spelling.

    Not sure whats going on now.
    I still thing the "coup" was staged. Don't know with what did I show that I suddenly think it wasn't ?
    If you mean this
    Then I don't know why ? you think that Erdogan "somehow" expected the coup...
    And I thing part of the military that knew about it being prepared and weren't supporting it, informed him and together with him created this whole show where some military parts are thinking they are doing a coup, and some lower rank parts are just given order with having no clue what and why are they doing it, while other just stay back and do nothing in a deal and cooperation with Erdogan.
    Or, in short - staged.

    My apologies.
  15. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    Alright then, I believe you are a kangaroo, I am Pikachu and we live in the Mushroom kingdom. It's my opinion, I don't have to provide any proof for it and if you deny it, it's not a superior opinion to mine because you said so.

    How is it not? How would even define an opinion? And most importantly, how would you differentiate an opinion like yours to an opinion such as the one I presented here? There must be some measure that we evaluate opinions, correct?

    That's not a fact, that's an equally clumsy assumption around the facts. The fact is it was a weak, disorganized coup. The immediate answer without any assumptions is they just messed up which means they were not up for the task. That does not mean they didn't really mean it.

    So if you try to run a marathon and you suck at it, getting last place with a clumsy, half-hearted performance, the marathon run would be "staged" as well? Wouldn't you agree that some things revolve just around skill and ability?

    Why not? Why would they lie about it? And I don't mean just perpetrators, I also mean others around or even the victims.

    It's not totally impossible, but there's no piece of data or tangible evidence to support this. Hence it's just a sloppy hypothesis among the many people could make. Evidence suggests what was said about the hostages was true. Until evidence that disproves this comes along, there's no undeniably well-founded way you could refute it.

    Well, why would you mention them then? That was besides the point since most people didn't even participate in those events and some of them even tried to save the soldiers from lynching as they deemed it barbaric as well.

    Besides, it's not like acting as an enraged mobs of barbarians means you are not educated or you aren't doing it for democracy. There are radicals and violent people on every side.

    Or the more obvious explanation (that's admittedly also not proven yet) is that Erdogan found out about a possible coup from his intelligence services and own military henchmen long before the coup so he was prepared for it.

    Coups and plots in general need extensive planning long before they are executed. It's not unreasonable that such a plan was leaked and reached Erdogan.
  16. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    No its not. Thats a belief.

    Thats a belief.

    As we all know, from the dawn of our "civilization", beliefs don't have to be rational, they don't have to fallow reason and logic, or be supported with facts and common sense.

    Assumption - opinion. Almost no difference.

    I find it hard to believe that Turkish army, the 3rd most powerful army in NATO, and with such long "tradition" in organizing coups, couldn't do much much better then what they did.
    I find it hard to believe that they would proceed with it, with knowing how small and weak is the support for it, within the army.
    I find it hard to believe that they would miss some important steps, make basic mistakes, made irrational moves, and half-assed the whole thing.

    Terrible analogy.
    The marathon doesn't have a group goal. There is no goal that marathon participants have to achieve. They might have their own individual goals when participating in it, but there is no goal of the marathon as an event, and it especially doesn't require group effort.
  17. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    A belief is by definition an opinion on something. For example, you could say "I believe there is a God" and "in my opinion, there is a God". Both statements infer the exact same thing which is you personally feel like a God exists, but you don't necessarily have evidence for it.

    The only real difference between a belief and an opinion is that opinions are more often backed by facts and indicative data, but I doubt you have anything concrete of the kind to believe the coup was staged.

    Explained above.

    Of course they must. A belief (just like an opinion) can be rational or irrational based on what you say. For example, I can say "I believe/in my opinion, string theory is correct" which is something not yet proven, but supported by facts and data that suggest it could be true. But you can also say "I believe/in my opinion Santa Claus exists" which is completely unfounded.

    The fact some people use the belief get-out-of-jail card to excuse their own intuition doesn't make it right or acceptable.

    Technically, but not exactly.

    You assume something is true means you take a leap based on the current data and in your case, it's a huge, clumsy leap that leaves way too many details behind you seem to handwave because you don't care about evidence and proof.

    An opinion can be like that, but it wouldn't be viewed as a good opinion because it would be way too suggestive.

    The army as a whole. You said it that it's not the whole army that participated, so I don't see where would you use this argument to support your case.

    Already answered it. Turkey has had a lot of coups, but they were not executed by the same people. Just because they all happened in Turkey and perpetrated by Turks doesn't mean it has to be good all the time.

    That's like saying "I find it hard to believe Greece or Egypt doesn't produce much groundbreaking science anymore with such a long, ancient tradition".

    Well, apparently they didn't. And the fact Erdogan probably expected it and let it happen shows he knew how to handle it and did. Humans make mistakes and plots or conspiracies can be weak, disorganized or just downright bad. What's so hard to believe in that?

    That's not true. A coup can be very successful if you attack swiftly and make the right moves. Erdogan was ready and was not caught off-guard. That doesn't mean the plotters' idea wasn't good enough.

    They didn't miss any step that I know of and made no big mistake or "irrational move". They were just too ineffective and Erdogan was ready to repel them. The coup was hald-assed because it ended up as a huge failure. If you were a plotter and you saw your plan backfiring spectacularly, wouldn't your morale fall so that the rest of the effort seem half-assed?

    The analogy fits exactly what I'm talking about, you just didn't get my point.

    Group effort doesn't matter here, that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm saying is that you would call blatant failure a "staged, half-assed effort" regardless of any other possibilities. Just like my marathon analogy, you could just be an inadequate racer and couldn't do it, so the effort seemed half-assed and you lost. Just like the coup was just badly executed and they failed.

    Also, you still seem to handwave the fact that I acknowledge that Erdogan knew about the coup in order to stop it. That would explain a lot of details and would be a lot less suggestive than what you say.

    OT: Erdogan runs rampant with his totalitarian policies as a means of "revenge":

    It smells like 1933 :ninja:
  18. Z01d

    Z01d Well-Known Member

    Smells more like Stalin to me.

    He's so insane that he thinks german officials would help him cleanse in germany and is offended that they don't. We'll see how many turks he can mobilize. There's a big protest announced.
  19. kildat017

    kildat017 Well-Known Member

    belief is trusting that someone will come at your doorstep when someone said he'll come at your doorstep at any given date without evidence. purely just by taking someone's words at face value, no evidence whatsoever.

    belief is holding to those words that someone will come, despite the doubt that they can ditch their promise whenever they feel like it.
  20. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    I heard from a (admittedly unverified) source that there is actually a phone service in Germany where Erdogan supporters can report other Turks who criticize him or talk about him badly. It's actually pretty fucking crazy, there are people who are now afraid to go back to Turkey in fear of getting arrested.

    That sounds more like "hopeful thinking" to me. Having hope and believing are tangent, but not necessarily mutual.

    Also, I gave an example of a sophisticated belief/opinion. There is nothing that says a belief doesn't need to be at the very least implied by some sort of data.