Discussion in 'World News & Debates' started by Eutychius, Jul 15, 2016.
Correction to the previous post, new rumors claim he is now seeking asylum in Britain.
Could be a massive blow to syrian rebels + ISIS, probably.
2:18 - FroKni: false flag
2:19 - FroKni: just government playing theatre to get more supporters and get free reign on arresting people
2:19 - FroKni: don't believe their lies
2:19 - Supa: how I know youre not one of them..
2:20 - FroKni: If I was with govt I wouldn't be poor neet
4chan meme aside, I'm not surprised. It's been well known that (moderate) muslims are moving away from muslim countries.
Welp, it kinda failed.
Poorly staged performance for the gullible, which now allows, the 21st century sultan, Erdogan to make extremely radical moves and solidifies himself as the supreme ruler of the reborn Islamic state of Turkey.
Military shooting at people @ 0:17
I hate to be the party pooper here, but there's a tiny detail missing here a.k.a. actual proof of that.
I mean, throwing accusations around is fine and all, Erdogan himself blamed Gulen for the coup instead. It's not like people who accuse Erdogan have more evidence than Erdogan has evidence for Gulen's involvement.
Instead, the idea of an actual coup seems to be the most obvious conclusion and in fact not surprising. Turkey has had 5 coups in 56 years:
I suggest we apply Occam's razor.
Thing is that Erdogan the only one who benefit from current situation. I really hope EU wont invite them to join EU, because this region is way too unstable and any incident caused by Turkish people would only lead to far right parties getting even more support across the EU.
>Go to sleep expecting WWIII
Indeed. But while you are it, at least rename the thread to "attempted coup."
more like I no longer believe the thread serves its purpose since its a failed attempt for coup. better close it until anything major happens to Turkey once more.
Funny, you don't seem to mind that for many other World events.
That is exactly why this might work and fool many.
And yes, I am fully aware that you are more than capable of using google and citing "Wiki" and that you posses great knowledge of the "official facts" and all, but that knowledge has little to no value for a place like this.
If everyone would just talk and post "the official story", what's there to discuss then ?
First of all, you don't do a cour without a major support for it within the military.
Second, you do it by capturing government members and the president himself, during the night, not in the middle of the evening, when everyone is enjoying a nice little stroll after dinner, before going to sleep, not while the president is "oh, so, conveniently" tucked away in some holiday resort on vacation.
You start by taking over mayor institutions buildings, not bridges(?!) and airports...
And thirdly, you do it when the discontent among people is at a high, not when he just dominantly won the elections.
So, by definition, this cannot even be called a coup. More like a rebellion of a section within the army.
Then, the events in the aftermath, suggest that this was all a staged show.
The sultan now intends to get rid of 2500 court judges !? What do they have to do with a military coup ? and 2500 of them ? Or is it because they were freeing innocently arrested journalists and political opponents of the sultan ?
Then the constitution change ?
To the dungeon with them from now on, they will be lucky if not hanged or fed to the dogs.
A failed military coup by a bunch of "noobs" doesn't actually mean it's a false flag. Whether it's a false flag or not, the default position is to be skeptical until we can see evidence. He's not calling you a liar, he just required proof before making a judgement himself.
So far all the proof you've provided is opinion without any direct ties. Are you really shocked the governmental powers took "steps" to counter-act opposition after a failed coup?
Occam's razor "Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected."
Thiat exactly it, I don't think this "event" could even be called a coup. The key elements of a real coup are missing. The whole thing is done pretty sloppy and amateurish.
"Capturing" a bridge and a TV stations can hardly be called a coup.
Funny how thats not the case for all topics.
Why do you and Euticlus think that my post is anything more than just my opinion ?
No, I am shocked by getting rid of 2500 court judges, after so called military coup ? What do the court judges have to do with military actions ? and 2500 of them ?
a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.
It's not about what they captured, it's about the political effect a military coup has. They could have captured a damn McDonalds for all it matters, the bottom line is you have a bunch of Army dudes assuming direct control separated from the government in power. Thus a coup.
You're gonna have to be more specific. The general idea in the discussions we have here, is that if you make a claim, you need to provide evidence; Otherwise, what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Your personal feelings about this coup aren't proof that it was a false flag operation.
If you're gonna argue that it's a false flag operation, don't be surprised when people are skeptical since your hypothesis is basically a conspiracy theory. Once again I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that my opinion doesn't change based on feelings or assumptions or other people's opinions.
Those 2,500 court judges were probably on a list of "People who support opposition/ have declared anti-government views/ support a military coup" etc. His using this incident to go after his detractors really just looks like he saw an opportunity to solidify his presidency and take down dissenting opinions.
Without looking I can assume that whenever a military coup fails, the controlling government does the best they could to "clean up house". On the other hand I'm also certain that when military coups are successful, the military will use it's now obtained governmental power to "clean up house" as well.
Honestly I would find it more suspicious if he DIDN'T go after detractors.
I see you are skilled at using google, too.
Its ALL ABOUT what they "captured" if you wanna talk about a coup.
This looks more like a riot that a coup.
Nah. I had enough of "spinning in circles" here.
Yeah, And all you need is "some big excuse" to have a "validation" for your repressing, tyranny and dictatorship.
Yeah. And by looking at how sloppy it went down, how unorganized they were and how it had many error in steps from the start, it suggests to me that its was all staged.
Nothing in that definition about taking government buildings/doing it during the night/ making sure to kidnap the president etc.
Don't fight against the definition if the definition is pretty accurate.
Seriously this is getting annoying at this point. What do you call it when the local military attempts to seize control in it's own country?
A. A Coup
B. A Riot
C. A Siesta
Wonderful, so we agree you're talking out your ass. Anybody that is taken seriously here posts their sources and tries to validate what they say using facts and figures. The idiots here that don't back their shit up are usually the idiots on the losing side of arguments like our local feminists, pedophiles, nationalists and religious fundamentalists who use the same tactic as you of, my feelings > your evidence.
When you pretend to be a democracy, yes, you actually do need some big excuse to have validation for your repression, otherwise he might risk western intervention to bring the Turkish people some western democracy.
All what it suggests to me is that these people failed in their plan. Everything else is your CONSPIRACY THEORY.
Like I said again and again, until you provide some proof, you're talking out your ass.
There is something seriously wrong with you. You got issues.
While that might be a definition of a coup, this is a case of a coup d'etat which's full definition is
A bridge, an airport, TV station and your McDonalds are not parts of state apparatus.
I am not fighting, I gave my opinion.
Do you have any proof for that or are you just talking out of your ass ?
The fact it failed is on par with the timing of the thread a.k.a. in real time while being updated. The title kind of infers that it was being shown as such while the events were unfolding.
First things first, that's not how threads work. You don't close threads and reopen them when something else comes along.
Secondly, how does it not serve a purpose? Just because the coup failed there's no discussion to be had? The posts above very much disprove that, in fact.
Name one. And when you name it, bring the evidence that I actually did it.
Why does it occur to me that you are projecting? I mean, you are the one who keeps talking about evil "western" propaganda and calls us all sheep while also admitted to believing in other well-known conspiracy theories such as 9/11 being staged.
I'm no all-knowing sage myself, but I am very much pro-evidence.
I see how this works.
So, if an event looks statistically plausible and straightforward, it might "fool" many as opposed to "not surprise" many because it's actually realistic.
Since when is the most immediate possible answer non-credible and who got to decide this?
You see, this is the problem. You are unwilling to work out an event with evidence and facts because you deliberately put yourself in a position where you can't really be questioned without triggering your own self-imposed "rules" of how truth works.
If I use empirical data, facts, evidence, historians, articles or whatever else, it will never be enough for you because it's "official" which is somehow a synonym for "bad" now. It will never matter that I actually provide evidence, because your conviction is based entirely on one big conspiracy that all evidence you don't like is "fabricated" and "false" or worse yet, "holds no value in a place like this".
Posting the official story is crucial to the truth. It's a compilation of known-thus-far facts and evidence. It makes no assumptions. It's baffling to me how a completely neutral and objective piece of journalism or encyclopedic knowledge taking no sides whatsoever can be hostile to you.
The coup participators were the military. They weren't the entire military, but notice how they took the chief of the entire Turkish forces and several other generals as hostages.
As I said, they captured military high ranking officials while also bombarding the parliament and presidential palace. Maybe they would have attempted to murder or capture politicians had they actually been able to which apparently they weren't.
Also, there is no "good time" to have a coup. Many coups also happened in the morning or at noon. It doesn't matter when you commit it, it's not like people strolling around, sleeping or sitting around will be any less alert when they learn about a coup. Or do you honestly think that a coup can happen during the night and the people will miss it?
And finally, Erdogan being away on vacation and therefore in safety isn't supposed to be a setback to a success of a coup. Proof?
In the morning of 15/7/1974, a small part of Cypriot military backed by the Greek military junta of the time committed a coup against the president Makarios. They failed to kill him as he fled in safety despite marching attacking tanks towards the presidential house.
However the coup was a success, installing a new fascist government which in turn prompted a series of unfortunate events in later days.
And this in turns shows the epitome of how conspiracy theories trip on themselves before any definitive proof: Conspiracies (both real ones and theories) are executed by real people and real people are prone to mistakes.
"Major institutions"? Aren't airports and bridges "major" enough? So, limiting people's and rivals' movement, preventing them from leaving the country or preventing external forces from moving in the country is not "major" enough?
Airports, bridges, roads, borders; these are all very crucial types of things you need to control to impose your dominance. That's why they also imposed a curfew on the population. The fact people defied their orders is what made their plan fail and they were very clearly unprepared for that, hence they got trampled.
Unless you aren't fully informed on world politics, Erdogan is an unpopular president, especially among young educated people in Istanbul and the western Anatolian coast. He is an oppressive leader and they know it best, that's why the military acted in the first place.
In fact, the number 1 place of people who are likely to think this was staged is Turkey, as anti-Erdogan supporters will most likely think that.
I know you have a grudge with official sources, but I didn't expect that official vocabulary definitions would an issue as well. This very much qualifies as a (failed) coup d'etat. I didn't invent English or French, I can't change the definition because you disapprove of it.
There are 2 main facets of this:
1) They are charged with plotting against the government. In other words, they are accused of being part of the coup.
2) Erdogan himself hasn't presented any evidence to prove this.
So, yes, there is a reason to imprison all those judges as being part of the coup to establish a new government. However, it's very possible that Erdogan is taking advantage of the situation to establish even more control in judicial terms.
I do not deny Erdogan is an opportunistic oppressive leader, I said that myself and mentioned that over 10 posts ago. But being an oppressive leader that takes advantage of a situation to become even more strangling isn't the same as actually staging the coup. You are conflating 2 things that are not necessarily mutual.
I cannot comment on that. I have not read how the constitution is supposed to change. It could be just reforming the military, it could be a lot more.
You could provide an actual article for that.
I do not, I didn't even imply anything different. I'm just explaining why your opinion is flawed.
The fact you are quick to dismiss everyone else's opinions (and sometimes facts) doesn't help either.
Also, it's important to note some other things you might find interesting:
1) Erdogan is blaming Gulen, but the US refuse to do anything without evidence. So much for that NATO supposed solidarity.
2) There have been critics worldwide already for Erdogan's vengeful actions and blame him for exploiting the situation to become even more controlling over judicial decisions and media. There is still no pundit that haphazardly blames Erdogan for staging the coup.
3) If anything, people's response to the coup was more about protecting democratic values rather than Erdogan himself, even if some Erdogan supporters proceeded with some atrocities like lynching soldiers that were part of the coup.
EDIT: I stumbled upon this article as well: http://www.vox.com/2016/7/16/12205352/turkey-coup-failed-why
It very much supports the idea it was a real, failed coup, but ultimately failed because of some very obvious decisive factors.
Separate names with a comma.