CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by the U

Discussion in 'World News & Debates' started by Ostarion, Feb 24, 2016.

  1. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    You say that, but I have seen it with my own eyes how the Albanians act both in Macedonia and in Kosovo. You see albanian flags all over the place. In theory I agree, ethnicity and nationality aren't the same, but in this case it is, believe me.



    Because the USA and the rest of the NATO are sooo good third party sources right? At least Putin says it how it is.


    Well, you can't do that, at least not the way they did it. Their secession was against every law, yet the UN being big hypocrites were completely okay with it.
     
  2. Lama051

    Lama051 Moderator

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    "No russian troops operating in Crimea"

    One year later

    "There were russian troops operating in Crimea"

    Both are official statements by him, so yeah, he is totally trustworthy source.
     
  3. Arcana_Arcanus

    Arcana_Arcanus Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Sincerely, I envy your poise Eutychius. This 16-18 y.o troll from Belgrad continues to insult you in every post, and yet you spare his pitiful existence.

    Sure.

    Some time later:

    And just a bit later:


    All legal. A foundation of law.



    In any way, I already did a pretty substantial post on Crimea "referendum" in a different thread, which was removed. If mods give me green light, I will make attempt to recreate it and nail it once and for all (not for our serbian friend though, he is beyond any hope).

    As a post-scriptum, I just want to bring your attention how whataboutistic is position of both russkies and serbs in this regard. When they turned against their neighbours they didn't even hid their contempt to the law, and when by the same sword they were struck - they suddenly remembered that it exists. And on the other hand, when either partitions done to them or when they annex something - do they appeal to or hear the arguments that partitions and annexations are actually wrong? No, they say "Duh, but you did that! Why can't we?".

    Because they don't hate America, no, quite to the contrary they actually secretly admire it, and envy it with passion.
     
  4. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    OK, this charade has gone long enough.
    You can't fight facts with made up stories presented as facts.

    ***WARNING***

    The following documentary portrait the brake up of Yugoslavia, but also touches up on how our World works and might burst some peoples bubble about the World as they know it and cause serious depression on people who posses the feelings of empathy, injustice and compassion.

    Movie:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waEYQ46gH08
    Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qi50Mun4RA
    IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1789083/

    Watch at your own risk!​

    Note: Reading the comment on IMDB is a summery of this whole thread. People fighting made up things and propaganda with facts, and people fighting facts with made up things, propaganda perceived as facts, screaming propaganda at real facts, and vice versa in a vicious cycle... And out of all who screamed serb propaganda, not one asks themselves how did a canadian/serb journalist got US Major General to spread serb propaganda? Or USA historians ? Or Canadian journalists.?Or even Muslims, Croats, Albanians themselves even ? ... Depicts this whole thread really.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2016
  5. Lama051

    Lama051 Moderator

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    He is so wrong about so many things there. The prime reason why all of that happened was Tito, he was the one who kept Yugoslavia together for all those years and there was nobody to step into his shoes, as a result many political parties/national parties started to play their game. Saying that it is all Western conspiracy is delusional, you cannot simply tear apart countries from outside.

    He also showed texts and cited only very small part of it, tear it out of the full context of a paragraph so it would fit his view.

    Some chronological issues in that documentary.

    The emotional part about Muslims and Serbs (was it those two?) how there were never any issues among them and how west has never shown it because it did not fit their propaganda? Well Sudets there were Germans and Czechs living peacefully in some areas as well. Does not mean that since things are working out in one village that it can be applied across whole region.

    Then it got to the EU/WB/IFF part and then it well full bullshit. The reason why most of the locally produced stuff got shut down is not because others have subsidies but mostly because they quite often offer higher quality at similar or slightly higher price, that obviously means they are more efficient with their productions. Most laughable part for me was about Czech sugar production and how it was forced to shut down during the talks with EU. That industry was going bankrupt since early 20th century and most of those went completely bust in the pre-WW2 crisis. After the revolution (1989) there were only handful left operating, some of them shut down, some of them are still operational.

    Basically vast majority of that document could be scrapped except for like last 5 minutes, where there he talks about corruption. Combination of no strong leader, political reshuffle and economical crisis of late 80s in eastern Europe and corruption ultimately led to the Yugolavia's dissolution.
     
  6. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    No, it's not, please read my paragraphs on that again.

    I repeat just in case: Nationality is about being a citizen of a certain state. Waving flags around is not a legal qualification to claim nationality. I can grab a Rwandan flag and wave it if I like. Doesn't grand me Rwandan citizenship.

    Also, ethnic Albanians wave Albanian flags because it's the symbol of their heritage. Much like a Serb born in the US for example can wave the Serbian flag. He is not a Serbian national, he does not live in Serbia, but he is an ethnic Serb and waving the flag represents that.



    Did I in any way imply that? No.

    Also, two words: Independent journalism. And guess in which countries you tend to find those: European countries. Believe me, Europeans are the finest at exposing their own governments.

    Plus, "Putin says it how it is"? He is just telling things as he sees it or as he wants other people to see it. He is not objective and he never will be because the situation involves him and his country. Of course he will first and foremost defend his own position.



    "Against every law" is hyperbole, but I repeat, the legality of the issue barely enters the fray due to diplomacy and the situation that arose in said country. Nobody is sanctioning Nagorno-Karabakh for what they did and declaring independence, they are just not recognizing the state. Kosovo happens to be supported by many countries out of geopolitical interests.

    Nothing hypocritical about that. The UN is an organization that runs on the collective political participation of all countries. It's not there to stop countries from recognizing Kosovo, especially if the big powers inside the UN sway one way or the other. In essence, UN is just a mediator and most of the time can't enforce international laws alone. Countries must comply.



    One critical question: What makes this documentary truthful and mainstream documentaries propaganda? One valid criterion other than "it's just the way it is".
     
  7. Arcana_Arcanus

    Arcana_Arcanus Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Nagorno-Karabakh was the action of Armenia against Azers with a direct intent to ethnically cleanse and occupy not just Karabakh but also as much land as azers were willing to give up. NKR was but a visage that served as a standard operation procedure for "legitimizing" the conflict. This SOP was used throught many centuries, even though so often it is made in such an ill-quality fashion. To put it in a more graspable concept, if you have played Europa Universalis series you are familiar with a concept of "legitimizing" the act of war through Casus Beli. If you evade it too much you may accumulate a big chunk of "aggressiveness" points that will lead to increased war attrition and forcing everybody to join forces against you.

    NKR, just as Srpska Krajina, Transnistria and more recently - DNR\LNR - are same shades of this concept - making up casus beli to force justification of the conflict in semantic diplomatic terms and in the eyes of the less informed (and more guillible) international community.

    What's interesting, that yeah, pretty much everybody and their grandmother did this throughout the history. For instance, even French did exactly this by forcefully installing loyal "government" in German Rhineland in the wake of post-Great war crisis, that existed as such a pseudo state up until late 20s, and even into 36 as a semi-independent french pawn. There are numerous examples in modern history just as well, for instance Western Sahara - Algerian proxy in a war against Morocco.

    However, one must not mistake and confuse these states with actual dual states that formed either through staunch ideological or ethnical differences ( e.g. South\North Vietnam, South\North Sudan, Serbia\Kosovo ) or through mutual occupation by conflicting states (e.g. South\North Korea, West\East Germany). The big difference is that these states actually exist as an independent player, very often not sovereighn and controlled by other state, but they can and often do act by themselves and without direct involvement of their suzerain.
     
  8. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAufGfCQXKw

    https://www.rt.com/news/218719-czech-veteran-nato-medals/
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tx4qbc-K3E
    http://motls.blogspot.rs/2014/12/czech-army-physician-returns-nato-medals.html

    But, even when the times are tough and your whole World is crushing down, you gotta keep a sense of humor.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIjO2fb3pwE
    So, chin up, less and less people believe them, and soon, they will ran out of power.
     
  9. Lama051

    Lama051 Moderator

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Anyone who is willingly supporting our president is a fool at best. Out president has direct connection to Russia, half of his cabinet does not have a security check and as a result should not have access to classified information but they do because reasons. Corruption among his cabinet is flourishing as well. He also blindly follows anything that Russia does and praises China for their control over their society. Additionally our glorious president promises one thing, does not uphold it and then mocks anyone who points out his errors to him.

    And this soldier praises out president for being true to the values of our country. What a joke.
     
  10. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    To all who are interested and those of you who value some "little irrelevant things" such as international law, rules, resolutions and statutes.

    Here are the pictures of football stadiums in Kosovo, which just got accepted in UEFA and FIFA organizations by bribes, corruption and brute force.

    http://pictures.reuters.com/C.aspx?VP3=SearchResult&VBID=2C0FCI6DU7O1X

    Browse trough the pictures, take a good look, and tell me, do you see Messi and Ronaldo playing on those stadiums in Euro/World cup qualifications ?

    Put on a side facts like, those stadiums don't meet UEFA standards and can't be used for official match, or a little fact like, how is Kosovo team going to get into Spain for an away match, when Spain didnot recognize Kosovo as a state, and Kosovo passports don't exist for Spain. Put aside those "irrelevant little things"...
    Just based on the pictures, tell me, can you imagine Messi and Ronaldo playing there ?
     
  11. Arcana_Arcanus

    Arcana_Arcanus Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Lets play this the other way around turning it inside out. We'll check the degree of your doublethink capability :cat:

    Say, Russians "helped" Osetians and Abkhazians to gain independence from Georgia. Lets pretend it was all true and pure like a first love. If russkies were allowed to do this, why then West Europe and the US can't do the same thing in Serbia?

    Then there is another angle. Lets pretend that kosovars can't claim independence and secession from Serbian empire. Then why it has happened that serbs themselves were allowed to rip away from Ottoman and Habsburg hugs? "Well", you say, "It is our land and kosovars are aliens that came only recently and now eagerly bite the chunk of our holy soil" But then why Tito did it? Doubting his policies means defying the spirit of united Yugoslavia and thus inadvertently confirming the instability of that contraption.

    Or are you not caring for those ideals that Tito had? In that case, you crave for the same thing Milosevic did - for a Greater Serbia from Adriatic to Aegean, ethnically pure and clean - all the undesired anihilated in a holy carnage.
     
  12. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

  13. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    No, no, no. There are no terrorist, national extremist, guerrilla groups, western armed, supported and funded paramilitary organisations. Those are just peaceful, helpless civilians, seeking their independence trough diplomacy and law.

    Paris attackers. They are terrorists. They are extremist. They are the real threat.

    But, not in Kosovo. No extreme Islamist there. Only peaceful helpless civilians fighting for their rights through peaceful protests.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nHWsWOgtiw
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ7bp1qKTFY

    Dumb, double standards, Western hypocrites.
     
  14. Hrulj

    Hrulj Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    I will tell you a very big secret if you promise to keep it quiet. Here it goes:

    There is a HUUUUUUUUGE difference between asking people to identify as British, versus forcing them to identify as English.

    If Serbia when it created Yugoslavia led the torch with Yugoslavian identity, Yugoslavia would exist to this day. Instead Serbs tried to Serbify everything, and of course everything colaped.

    The fall of Yugoslavia is the best thing that ever happened to Western Balkans, but claims that US benefited from it are bogus and meaningless. What benefit did US have from it? If all former Yugoslav states simply gave all their money to US how much of an impact would they have on its 17 trillion GDP?

    Leave conspiracy theories out of it, and stop strawmaning

    ---------- Post added at 02:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 PM ----------

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2oeez9fkR8

    Look at those terrorists waving American flags, the well known Jihadists paradise.

    Albanians protested peacefully for several decades. Serbs crushed violently all of those protests. They escalated the conflict into what it became.

    ---------- Post added at 02:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 PM ----------

    I guess they would be better if they remained in servile position under Serbs, where all Jobs are handed out to Serbs, and only then given to Albanians? Where despite Serbs being 10% of population they held 90% of government jobs and positions? Where Albanian schools were illegalized? Serb greed over land shouldnt trump human decency and compassion
     
  15. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    But that isn't true. The English did force Welsh, Scotch and Irish people to be English, to speak their language, accept their culture at the cost of their own etc. All of these ethnicities went through multiple massacres in the late middle ages (in the case of Irish even in the modern age) and seggregation and also forced assimilation. You go to Wales and Scotland and you won't here anyone speaking welsh or scottish that I can tell you. Even one of Ireland's official languages remained English.
    It has been only recently when the English became more open to these questions and gave autonomous rights to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. But their culture has been almost completely stomped out when it happened. Ireland for example became an independent state only in 1922 and tensions were very high during the second half of the 20th century because of English occupation of the Northern part of the island.
    If Serbia when it created Yugoslavia led the torch with Yugoslavian identity, Yugoslavia would exist to this day. Instead Serbs tried to Serbify everything, and of course everything collapsed.


    Best thing for who? For ultra right wing nationalists maybe, but other than that not for many. Instead of a united federation you've got 6 banana states that are completely open to foreign exploitation and are too weak to act independently in terms of economics but also world politics. As for the US part, have you read the article in the OP? Maybe it might answer your question. Also I think other posters in this thread have given enough reasons how the US benefited from it.


    You do know that Albanians forcefully deported thousands of Serbs from Kosovo in the second half of the XIX century, right? That was also a peaceful protest I presume. Also you really seem to be heavily biased on the topic, would you tone it down to a more objective level so we could have a civilized discussion?

    citation needed.
     
  16. Hrulj

    Hrulj Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t


    No they didn't. There is still Welsh people, Scottish people, Irish and English all as separate identities. Such a thing would never happen under Serb leadership. They would be Serbs or they would be exterminated. That is the reason why UK existed for centuries and Yugoslavia failed after a few decades.



    I prefer a banana state in which I have a say, in which I am not under threat of extermination or serbification, to living in intergalactic superpower. Serbs would never accept living in conditions that others lived in, so why should others accept such conditions? Better to be separate and have rights, than united and crushed by Serbian mania.


    I am toning it down to previous level of discussion filled with conspiracy theories, "why does no one like us", "America feared Yugoslavia" and "Serbia stronk" theories. Albanians couldn't deport anyone in 19th century, they had no country to speak of. What happened is a population exchange. Serbs expelled muslims of various ethnicities from Serbia, and in return Ottomans did the same to Serbs outside of Serbia. Of course, I guess you would prefer the outcome where no one touches the Serbs but Serbs ethnically cleanse everyone else?

    citation needed.
    http://www.nytimes.com/1998/03/03/w...ush-protest-by-kosovo-s-ethnic-albanians.html

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/serb-police-crush-protest-in-kosovo-1148032.html

    http://www.upi.com/Archives/1992/10...rse-ethnic-Albanian-protesters/4403718948800/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_protests_in_Kosovo



    And on and on it goes. Peaceful protest over discrimination, Serbs deploy police and military, Serbs crush the protest and beat up Albanians. Albanians had enough and now Serbs cry because Albanians couldn't take it anymore.
    Kosovo is better off independent
     
  17. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Out of what cave you just crawled out of ?
    You missed on some great world events, most notably "WikiLeaks" with J. Asange and E. Snowden. You spent God knows how many years in that cave, learning about all the "official" truths and "official" history, but these 2 guys will crush and collapse your whole "living in a bubble" way of existing as you learn more and more about the current state of the civilization, now that you have left your cave.
    And how did they do that ?
    How ?
    Out of many, I would only mention one.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Bondsteel
    Wow... There were/are some piss poor WN&D analysts here, but you just took the number one spot of the section clown.
    And here comes the "conspiracy theorist" defense.
    When I got nothing, when I can't answer, when my whole world is crashing...Boom... Force field... "Conspiracy theorist"...LALALALA "I can't hear you" LALALAALA I am in my bubble, my force field protects me.

    Even the title suggest that this is not and can not be a conspiracy theory, but you didnot read anything from the thread before deciding to jump in "the discussion".
    Is that supposed to prove something ? And why are they waving American flags ? What does America have to do with this ? Oh, maybe its cause they started this whole shitfest from the start...

    But two can play that game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edGaxOU4UAE

    And why did they protest ?
    Those numbers are correct just in the last decade or 2. Its was much different 50 years ago.
    And did you ask yourself how did it get to those numbers ?

    Do you have any proof of that, other than your fabricated history, caveman literature ?

    Say what now ?
    What threat ? What serbification ?

    What conditions ?

    Crushed how ?

    And with this you proved that you don't even know what deportation is, and how clueless you really are. Any further discussion with you is pointless.
    You learned and memorised "facts" very well, you don't and cannot use your brain to question those facts, you are just one of these.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK2zXGSqVko
    A puppet.

    Duuuuuuuuuude. Check yourself into a medical institution.

    And what ethnic clensing might that be ? You know, in reality... not made up in one of your fantasies.

    Oh man... Made a mistake by replaying without reading the whole entire gibberish. Since you didnot even have the decency to read and watch previous post before jumping in here, I will just leave this here.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waEYQ46gH08
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nHWsWOgtiw
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/22/w...t-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=1
    http://www.infowars.com/the-real-story-behind-kosovos-independence/
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdcV5N7Icwk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocRJWjUm6zQ
     
  18. Hrulj

    Hrulj Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    When someone questions if I crawled out a cave and starts a discussion railing against "official truths" and puts forward Russian puppets Assange and Snowden what am I to do except imagine you as an Alex Jones Serb

    By for starters making denying several ethnicities to declare as such forcing them to chose between Serb/Croat ethnicity.

    Freedom. It has no price as they say.

    How is that a benefit? They are forced to maintain a camp and pay for its staff in order to keep Serb agression in check. And that is a benefit to America how? Where are the gold mines, the oil, the diamonds and what not?


    Should be easy to dispute me then, but instead you have "clever" retorts and avoid disputing facts

    Conspiracy theory exactly. Talking about benefits to US because Yugoslavi was a threat somehow? And then you jump in with official truths and real truths. A tinfoil hat example.

    Its because they are secular and democratic, they love America and American values. Those don't go well with Islamism.

    Sure we can. We can also show this to understand why US had to act to save Kosovo Albanians from Serb monsters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OgpMgZDMx0

    For equal rights, democracy and right to education in Albanian.

    Unless the reason for that is massive natural lack of Albanian population I don't care. Its a perfect example of discrimination that you don't even dispute but try to justify instead.

    Ask Albanians themselves. A really good one came on Humans of New York to talk about it. Search him up.
    Serb greed over teritory shouldn't trump human decency? If you have trouble understanding use English dictionary for specific words.

    Serbification is turning someone into a Serb trough media, force, peer preasure and indoctrination in schools.
    The condition in which someone else tell them that they are to declare themselves as Vlachs instead of Serbs, and that 90% of Jobs in Serbia will be held by Albanians.



    Genocide, ethnic cleansing, rape camps etc...


    Is it a lie that Uzice, Nis, Bajina Basta, Belgrade were majority non Serb towns inhabited by majority muslim populace that Serbs forced out? Is it a lie that Belgrade alone had 217 Mosques and now it has... one?

    I suggest a history book.


    [/QUOTE]

    And there we go, Serb propaganda and conspiracy theories. And I am to discuss you? :rofl:
     
  19. GoD_Tyr

    GoD_Tyr Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    I lived in Uzice for most of my life, and yeah it was heavily populated by muslims during early ages - that was the result of Ottoman 500 year long conquest of Balkan which serbs despised so much. It was 500 fucking years of forceful ruleship, Janissaries abductions and other weird and unearthly customs ottomans brought to Balkan. Yeah, they pretty much cleaned the whole town from muslims long time ago and that was great. You come in force, you get kicked by force. Islam was forcefully-brought to Balkan by Ottomans, it wasnt there before, it wasnt a part of local culture nor religion for many hundreds of years.
     
  20. Houselife

    Houselife Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Western Powers were interested in Yugoslavia's dissolution because a certain side, especially Serbia had a close bilateral interest with the Soviet Union, the Soviet Union had military bases in Yugoslavia to counteract Western military bases in the Turkey.

    Yugoslavia was politically united but not ethnically, Western powers used it as chance to create paramilitary groups in Yugoslavia contributing with the dissolution, it's said that Slobodan Milošević wanted to keep Yugoslavia united and protect Serbians in Bosnia, Slovenia, Croatia etc... from such paramilitary groups financed by European and American banks, another side of the story tells us that Serbia committed crimes of war and abuse because they had a lot of Soviet weapons and a lot of trained soldiers while the other Yugoslav states had practically nothing, but in reality is that all states committed crimes of war, rape, violation etc...
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016