CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by the U

Discussion in 'World News & Debates' started by Ostarion, Feb 24, 2016.

  1. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    This 'built on sand' argument is so hollow anyway. Literally every major country was built on sand. The UK was built on the decade-long, systematic oppression of welsh, scotch and irish cultures. Even to this day the differences are signifcant yet it stands, proudly so. I am not denying that Yugoslavia was a perfect heaven, but don't fool yourselves that it wasn't ignited by the west.
     
  2. Mognakor

    Mognakor Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    UK has a century long history and it's isolated by water all around it.
     
  3. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    That is not an argument but a total nonsense without a meaning in this context or any context. As I said before, "So are the Pyramids and they stand for millenniums." but that got censored.
    Pay no attention to that post.
     
  4. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    But the various people on the islands aren't. Same is the case with France; natives in Languedoc or in Bretagne or in Elsace were totally different people and regarded themselves as such. It's the forced process assimilation made the idea that they are all 'French' which took centuries and centuries for natives to give up their own culture, language etc.
    So the argument that Yugoslavia was built on sand simply doesn't make sense, because every major country today started to be built exactly like Yugoslavia.
     
  5. Mognakor

    Mognakor Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    We only remember those that didn't fall apart.

    And even nowadays there are countries with parts fighting for independance.
     
  6. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    "Built on sand" is a metaphor, it doesn't literally mean to build something on sand. What he wanted to say was that Yugoslavia was built upon a very turbulent area with rival nationalistic groups bordering each other making peaceful coexistence a tough business.

    The difference with the UK is the fact that (aside from Scotland), the other members were generally content under English rule (and Scotland seems to be as well now, given the voted no on an independence referendum). And despite Scotland having major wars with the English, they gradually reached a workable status quo through the span of centuries. Yugoslavia didn't even last a century and was coming out of actual centuries of radical opposition to each other. Croats didn't begin to dislike Serbs in the 90s, Christians didn't begin to dislike Bosniak Muslims of the area in the 90s etc.
     
  7. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    No shit...

    And what I wanted to say it that is his opinion based on little real knowledge and actual facts and, in my opinion a lot of horse shit, rapped in a pyramid metaphor...

    Which would prolly continue to work just fine, without outside interference, money bribed politicians, and propaganda... Which is exactly what this thread is all about.

    Besides, There was and still is much greater and much longer hate between white people and black people in USA, but no outside factor to exploit that in any point of the hystory...
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2016
  8. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    It wasn't just the Scots. The Irish hated the English from the get go and when did they get independence? In 19 fucking 22 and even to this day the Brits are occupying Northern Island which caused and still causes a lot of tension between the two countries. Look up the time period 'troubles' and see for yourself that even after WW2 there were multiple terrorist attacks and assassination attempts by the Irish.
    Wales is okay now, but that's because the English systematically oppressed and killed native Welsh people in the middle ages, starting from the 12th century, so yes now that their culture is almost completely ruined or anglicized they are 'okay'.
    My whole point is that this argument about the inner tensions of Yugoslavia is overexaggerated and presented in a way that makes it a special thing, when in fact it is far from anything special. It was just a convenient excuse for other countries to make a fairly strong country much weaker.
     
  9. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Your pyramid metaphor didn't in any way refute his point. In fact, what you say here is not implied in whatever included in your post about the pyramids. What metaphor is it for? He said something was built on sand as a metaphor. Mentioning the pyramids doesn't exactly respond how he is supposed to have little knowledge as you claim nor does it disprove his initial point.

    We can never know that. I wish I was a magical wizard that knows how alternate timelines would go, but in an already turbulent area, not having outside intervention isn't mutually exclusive with leading to a break-up.

    That's completely irrelevant. Black people are not a nation, they are Americans. Discrimination and racism is an entirely different kind of issue than nationalism. What you had in Yugoslavia was intercommunal hatreds and friction in an area with strong separatist movements.

    You just refuted your own point. Ireland did finally come to violent conflict that created and still create friction with withstanding territorial disputes. If the UK couldn't withstand that, what chances did Yugoslavia have?

    So, you do agree that centuries-old assimilation is needed for peaceful coexistence between nations with grudges against eachother. And besides, if the English so infamously had to resort to violence to achieve that, how do you suggest Yugoslavia would have implemented the same "successful" formula? Are we in favour of violence to keep order?

    Well, it is exaggerated, but it's still big. Nationalism in the Balkans is no joke and violent conflicts were not uncommon. In an age where the UN hops in to hijack conflicts and prevent any possible hostilities, of course acts of extreme violence would get a lot of attention. I mean, it's no worse than other ones in the past, but in the past war was more frequent than FIFA world cups.
     
  10. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Partially yes, Northern Island however is still UK territory. They are firmly holding their hands on that, still making the Irish divided.


    The same way the English and the French did, you can't keep order with rainbows and balloons. Yugoslavia was a young country formed of multiple ethnicities, however Tito almost managed to assimilate every nation into one. Too bad nationalism and stupid leaders followed him. But even that could have been contained if Americans didn't intervene so actively. The fire wouldn't have been that strong without American fuel if you get what I mean.


    It was a bloody war definitely and a pointless one as well. Just take a look how strong the economy was during the 70s and 80s and where do we stand now, seperated by collective hate from one another.
     
  11. Mognakor

    Mognakor Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    So your solution would have been murdering everyone not in favor of Yugoslavia?
     
  12. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    It didn't refute his point because he didn't made a point. He just expressed his own personal opinion in that metaphor. I disagree with that, so I used his metaphor in real example, to show that. Nothing more.

    We couldn't never know that. Until some insider guy came out and gave insider information about the event and here were are, in this thread, talking about it.

    And thats the point of the thread. No one is denying the possibility of the country braking apart naturally in the next few years.

    No one is denying the possibility of the country braking apart naturally in the next few years. Just that its not what happened in this case.
    There were many issues, many problems, many politicians with big egos and aspirations to get into the books of history. Which was the ideal ground for outside factor to intervene, to exploit that and meddle into the internal affairs of the country and achieve their goals and interests.
    The events during the war suggested that's what happened, fallow up after the war confirmed that, and now insider information verifies that.

    For someone who is auto deleting off topic material for certain members, you sure miss the point of threads...

    Your pal Lama couldn't answer one question, lets see if you can.
    Whats so different between Slovenia, Croatia and Catalonia ? Why are one allowed to declare independence and other isn't ?
    And whats so different between Kosovo and Crimea ? Why is one internationally acknowledged and ok, and the other one is not, and percieved illegal ?
     
  13. Mognakor

    Mognakor Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Did Catalonia even try to declare independance.

    Afaik there was no legally binding referendum nor did they try to enforce independance.
     
  14. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    It should be the last resort, but if it's necessary yes. Order can't be kept with rainbows and balloons as I have previously said.
     
  15. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    If anything else, you are the one who is suggestive. I'm not propagating anything other than the already evident, it's not necessarily about the possibilities that could have been. But since this thread is about a hypothesis around what MIGHT have happened, I cannot claim I have the knowledge of prediction, only rely on reliable data and verifiable information.

    Catalonia is not denied independence at all. Mainly because they didn't wage war in order to achieve that and secondly because Spain (unlike Yugoslavia) isn't ready to mobilize its army to enforce the status quo if Catalonia decides to have a referendum for independence.
    Plus, the Catalan separatist movement has only become relevant in recent years due to Spain's financial crisis. So yeah, this is nothing like Yugoslavia at all.

    Crimea didn't seek its independence or try to join Russia. The crisis in Ukraine midst of the chaos allowed Putin to seize the territory to secure influence over pivotal points in previously obedient Ukraine on the premise of the Russian ethnic majority in the area.

    Kosovo was part of a 2-way conflict that lasted for a decade and involved mutual hostilities. After all, Kosovo wasn't annexed by Albania unlike Crimea with Russia. Serbia still has the right to discredit Kosovo's independence, but that doesn't stop some countries from recognizing it, much like Kosovo can't demand all countries to recognize them. It really is just diplomatic relations thereafter.

    In short, independence movement =/= annexation. The fact most European countries recognize Kosovo is nothing but geopolitical interest.
     
  16. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Yes they are. They aren't even allowed to have a referendum. Hell, even talking about it is getting them negative implications.
    For someone who is not a wizard who can predict what will happen, you sure are predicting a lot.
    It became relevant in recent years BECAUSE of Kosovo case. Unilateral and one sided declarations of independence is illegal in International law. Kosovo case is unprecedented case in the international law. Now even a referendum was held, even though they would pass it easily. But why bother... Fuck the law...
    Pfff... what fairy tale you dropped from... Ofc they seeked independence. And ofc they seeked joining with Russia. They even held a referendum. At least there was some fundamental in the law...
    But thats bad, not good you ignoramus. It would be better if Albania annexed Kosovo. Now you have one nationality with 2 countries, first time in the history of the World. Unprecedented, unique case. No where, not ever one nationality had 2 countries. Its agains all that formed our World as we know it and United Nations...FFS...

    You are telling me ?!
    Ofc thats the reason, But the fact that its illegal, and double standards for someone else, who gives a fuck about that !?

    Here you go, another example of fucks the laws, constitutions and whatnot... Laws are for the small and weak. Brute force is what matters.
    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/may/03/kosovo-accepted-uefa-member-vote-congress
    Football association of Kosovo got accepted in UEFA, even though one of the UEFA statutes clearly say, a country must be accepted in the United Nations to even apply for membership.
    http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles...g/WhatUEFAis/01/80/54/03/1805403_DOWNLOAD.pdf
    Statute III - Membership.
    Kosovo is not in United Nations, nor will it be until there are Russia and CHina, but thats no problem. Fuck the laws. Accepted anyway. There was talks of quickly changing the statutes for this, but again, they didnot even bother. Brake the law, again, who gives a fuck...
     
  17. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Not true. They haven't asked for a referendum yet. And talking about it has no negative implications. They even had a huge public demonstration. What repercussions did that have? They told them it was not nice of them?


    That's not a prediction, that's a fact. Spain is not only unwilling to engage in such a war, it's also strictly not allowed to. And why would they go to war? To cause more problems to their economy than they already have? If you genuinely think Spain would actually wage war on that basis, then you should look more into Spain's politics.


    >Catalan independence movement gaining relevance because of Kosovo

    What? How is that even remotely related? If Catalonia was in a good state inside Spain, what difference would Kosovo make? That makes zero sense whatsoever.

    Catalonia wants independence because they collectively give more money to Madrid's government than they get back and also because they feel their culture is being suppressed. Most recent government failures strengthened that. Nothing about Kosovo's independence is related to that case.

    Also, declaration of independence is not illegal if the country's constitution allows for possible future separation of one of its sovereign members. That's why Kosovo is NOT an unprecedented case. Ever heard of South Sudan? The recent Scotland referendum? Kosovo is not special at all, it's just another product of nationalism.


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but such a referendum was held after the Russian army got into Crimea. That definitely plays a role.

    Even then, the main point still stands. A territory being annexed is not the same as a territory declaring independence. It's not the same legal or political basis.

    What am I even reading...

    First of all, nationality =/= ethnicity. Kosovars are ethnic Albanians, but are not Albanian nationals.

    Second, here's a list just from the top of my head:

    -Greece/Turkey and Cyprus
    -Italy and San Marino
    -France and Monaco
    -Germany and Liechtenstein
    -South Korea and North Korea
    -China and Taiwan

    And of course, Bosnia which is a confederation of three main ethnicities. And these are just contemporary countries, let alone "in the history of the world". So, how is this unprecedented again?

    Plus, how is this bad? How is an ethnic group being part of 2 countries worse than one country annexing a part of another country where they are an ethnic majority?

    That's not double standards at all. Geopolitical interest contradicts "double standards". How is it double standards if they clearly show their intentions and diplomatically support the side their interests exist? The legality of the subject barely enters the fray. I mean, if anyone decided to take this to an international court, I'm fairly certain both sides would bring some legitimate points for their case.

    It's football, it doesn't really matter in politics. Even Israel is part of UEFA and they are not even geographically inside Europe. Don't try to make sense with these decisions.
     
  18. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Ah, a different approach is needed...

    Lie.

    Yeah. Because now they have a real example and now can rightfully question how come Kosovo can and Catalonia cannot declare independence or even have a referendum.

    You make zero sense. Who are you to question the state of Catalonia ? Since when the state of region plays a part in right for independence ?

    Thats why we have United Nations and its resolutions and laws.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1244 To prevent that from happening and establish some rules and laws.

    It wasn't ideal but had some foundation in law at least. Unlike Kosovo.

    No such thing. Made up for justifying illegal act of independence.

    Yes they are.

    There are no one nationality with 2 countries. or they are not acknowledged like Kosovo, because it is illegal. or they don't have International law and UN resolutions like Kosovo has.

    Whats the point ? We all know how unwilling you are to even watch a short documentary before you delete it as oftopic...
    Ask your guys.
    http://www.state.gov/p/eur/ci/kv/c24701.htm
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_politics/7252212.stm
    Marshall Putin did, they failed to answer.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbgTwvn0sKo

    Thats the thing though. They are not ethnic groups. The are almost and entire entity of both "countries". East Cyprus has that too with Turks. but no one acknowledged East Cyprus as a state, because it is illegal, except Turkey.

    Today its football. Yesterdays was a new state, forcefully and illegally taken away from another country.. Tomorrow will be the Moon is USA property...
    Whats the point of having laws ? The United Nations ? Why we build organizations on statutes if we are going to ignore them as brute force, bribes, corruption pleases...
    Did anyone asked themselves how is Kosovo going to play versus Russia, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Greece, Bulgaria ? None of them recognize Kosovo as a state, so how are they going to play against them ? Did anyone asked where is Kosovo going to play home matches ? No stadium in Kosovo can pass UEFA standards for stadiums ? But I guess,like with everything before, fuck the standards...
    God save the future children with the World you and the likes of you are leaving to them...

    If nothing else at least we proved that you are disqualified for WN&D forum manager.
     
  19. Mognakor

    Mognakor Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    What about West and East Germany?

    Or Germany and Austria?
     
  20. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Cite me one source that proves me wrong.

    Yes, because Catalonia needs Kosovo's example to demand their independence. It's not as if they actually want it regardless and would ask for it whether Kosovo gained recognition or not.

    I don't think you got the full grasp of what I said, so let me put it this way: There are very good reasons why Catalonia wants independence. All of them are enlarged and emphasized by the incompetence of the Madrid government. The poor state of Spain DOES de facto influence whether Catalonia want independence.

    Plus, it's common logic as well. If a region is stable and prosperous, what's the point of demanding independence anyway? This is one of the very reasons Scotland didn't pass their independence referendum. Because being part of the UK isn't detrimental to them.

    I like how you deleted my examples that show Kosovo is not a singular example, even though you quoted my entire paragraph.

    Regardless, UN laws don't mean anything if the country's laws sway the other way. Scotland had a referendum. They could have very easily been the next youngest fully independent country in the world. The UN does not have the power to halt that, especially since the UK as a whole complied. And that's the whole point, the way each of the 2 sides responds to an independence movement.

    Mobilizing military inside another sovereign state is also illegal.

    I think you confuse the semantics of "ethnicity" and "nationality". Ethnicity is not a "made-up term" for Albanians. It is a term that describes the main ethnic affiliation of an individual based on language, cultural heritage etc. Kosovars are ethnic Albanians. They speak Albanian, they have the same customs, they are essentially the same people.

    Nationality is a term that is used to describe a person's citizenship. Which is why it's not necessarily affiliated with ethnicity. Kosovars are NOT Albanian nationals because, quite simply, they are not Albanian citizens. They are not part of Albania the country. By your own side's position, Kosovars are Serbian nationals because their territory is claimed to be in the legal borders of Serbia.

    *ethnicity

    Yes they are and I just mentioned several. Cypriots are either ethnic Turks or ethnic Greeks (or others). But they are Cypriot nationals because they are not citizens of Greece or Turkey.

    The point is that I refuted every claim you made over how Kosovo is special yet you insist. Plus documentaries don't count as arguments. And posting the documentary in the places you posted it before is in fact off-topic and I would delete it again indefinitely if it was posted in those threads again.

    My guys? I'm not part of BBC or the political sides these journalists are part of. Just because I refute your arguments and showcase the ways in which you are wrong, doesn't mean I'm part of the "other guys". I'm just speaking objective truth. You on the other hand look the world in black and white without acknowledging the middle ground.

    Oh look, an amateur video that Putin doesn't even actually speak in. And I suppose Putin is a very valid third-party source we can trust on the issue, given he is actually part of the damn thing.

    First of all, *Northern Cyprus.

    Second, what are you talking about? I don't think we speak on the same terms here. There ARE ethnic groups. It's irrefutable. What are Serbs? What are Croats? What are Italians or Germans? Are they not ethnic groups? I'm fairly certain you have a distorted idea of what an ethnic group is.

    Third, Northern Cyprus has nothing to do with Kosovo in any way or form. The reason why TRNC is not recognized is because Turkey invaded Cyprus for that state to be formed 9 years later. Albania did not invade Serbia. Ethnic Albanians inside Serbia and more specifically Kosovo fought for their independence and secession from Serbia. On legal terms, the will to self-determination is not the same as invading another sovereign state. Similar legal premise with Crimea.

    Fourth, Cyprus as a country is part of two major ethnic groups: Greeks and Turks. Even if you take the Turkish ethnic group out of the equation because of the TRNC, the south of the island is still ethnic Greek. So (again), you have 2 countries (Greece and Cyprus) with people belonging to the same ethnic group (Greeks). Same with Kosovo and Albania.

    And the day after tomorrow McDonalds will establish a food-chain in Alpha Centauri.

    Legitimate question. Not necessarily due to Kosovo, but corruption in general is a problem worldwide.

    First of all, again, it's football. Nothing to do with politics (okay, slightly to do with politics, but ultimately in a very irrelevant way).

    Second, how is the lack of recognition a problem as to how certain teams will play each other? Turkey doesn't recognize Cyprus. China doesn't recognize Taiwan. Greece doesn't recognize Macedonia with their most commonly-used name. Yet they are all part of UEFA/FIFA. Doesn't seem like an issue to me.

    Third, shit stadiums don't mean much. If they don't pass the standards, they will play in the most readily-available nearby approved stadium. Again, doesn't seem like an issue to me.

    Look at all that hyperbole and over-dramatic response to the situation.

    Let me repeat what we are dealing with here: Kosovo became an UEFA member. I guess that's a big tragedy, right? I mean, politics and peace talks and official recognition are fine and all, but football? How could one cope with that?

    Says who? Are you some kind of authority that I'm not aware of?