CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by the U

Discussion in 'World News & Debates' started by Ostarion, Feb 24, 2016.

  1. Ety

    Ety Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Are we seriously questioning who was the aggressor here? Not a single Croatian soldier stepped his foot on Serbian territory during or after the war. That site is so biased I probably shouldn't even bother trying to give a sane argument to it, but I'll still give it a go.

    I am in no way justifying the acts of exiling innocent civilians (which happened in both sides), but how can you possibly compare it to actually slaughtering them? The Serbs were exiled once the war was over and despite being wrong, it was somewhat understandable given the circumstances that put everyone at unease.

    I remember when I was a 3 year old hiding in the basement and hearing gunfire at the time, but I guess it was all a hoax made up by the US and their evil propaganda.

    Considering the whole country has a population of only 4.4 million, of course it will be among the least populated countries when it comes to minorities. And yet, Serbs are still the most highly populated ethnic minority in Croatia today.

    I respect people's opinions, but I don't respect stupidity. You're talking of propaganda, yet you're the one spreading some quite malicious claims about conspiracy or whatever. I don't even have to be biased here. Like you've said, it doesn't take much effort to research for actual facts.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2016
  2. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    No one was the aggressor. And no one stepped in anyone's territory. It was all one territory - Yugoslavia. Croatians wanted independence, couldn't get it peacefully, so they went forcefully. So, Serbs responded in an attempt to prevent the braking of the country, and saving hudreds of thousands of Serbs who lived on Croatia considered territory for centuries.. Same thing is happening now in Ukraine. And its funny how those Russians in Ukrania are considered separatist and bad guys, but Croat were victims for doing exactly the same thing !? And Ukraine is supported by West for trying to stop the independence, and not considered aggressors like the Serbs for exactly the same thing ? Double standards much ?

    There is no site, only a picture.

    What ever the Serbs did, Croats did too. Except of exile of civilians. Only Croats did that.

    Not true. And like it matters or makes it better if its after the war ?
    Sure. sure. Same thing Nazis said for Jews.

    I see now that you have no idea what you are talking about.

    The exact number of population is irrelevant, its the % share of minorities in the total population that matters. In Croatia the % of Croats is very close to 100%.

    What you call actual facts is , in fact, propaganda, fabricated story with altered facts.

    http://arhiva.alo.rs/resources/img/03-09-2013/home_main/697933-43.jpg
    http://arhiva.alo.rs/resources/img/09-10-2013/single_news/772295-08.jpg
    http://www.novosti.rs/upload/images/2013//09/02n/reg-VUKOVAR.jpg

    This is 2015. This is in the middle of civilized Europe. This is in Croatia, the newest member of EU family. This is the braking of board on Government building, just because they have 2 types of letters on them, Latin and Cyrillic, which is for the Serbian minority. How savage you have to be to have a problem with this ? How mental you have to be do this ? Well, Croatia is a Nazi Germany creation, so I guess its understandable.

    Is this propaganda too ? Is this not facts ?

    I hope for your sake that you are very young, cause you are just a sheep on the Nth degree.
     
  3. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Actually it was you, because there was no such thing as Croatia, last time Croatia existed as an independent state was in the 11th century.
    Oh, yes and as a puppet state for Nazi Germany :)
    Just like Serbia, Croatia was a part of Yugoslavia that you decided to leave, it was not your territory, it was everyone's that lived in Yugoslavia but you people tend to forget that very quickly.
    As if you didn't commit mass murder, oh please.... just top with the bs.

    Yeah.. somewhat understandable. Nice wording there. Of course it is understandable to forcefully exile hundreds of thousands of people! It is completely rational how couldn't I think of that before! /sarcasm
    Jesus, I guess Croats killing Serbs and sending them to death camps like Jasenovac was understandable at the time as well...
    Who are even to this day are being discriminated, just go to Vukovar and see for yourself how's everyday life of a Serb there.
    The irony is strong indeed.
     
  4. Ety

    Ety Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Throwing some low punches there I see. I'm honestly not interested in these types of debates nor talking about the past, but some of those claims are nothing but purely offensive tbh.

    Forcefully? Are you serious? Croatia declared independence PEACEFULLY in DEMOCRATIC manner.

    By destroying various churches, cultural property and cities, killing men and raping women and attempting to claim the Croatian territory in order to turn the former Yugoslavia into Great Serbia. Quite a reasonable response.

    If the cultural, ethnic and economic differences are huge, I don't see a problem with one group attempting to declare independence from another. Same thing is happening with Catalonia and Spain, Scotland and UK and I don't see the West intervening about that.

    Sure. Even today someone kills another person on a regular basis. Except Serbs did it on a massive scale. And I'm not only talking about killing Croats, but Bosnians, Muslims and other nations and religious groups as well.

    Croatia is a catholic country, like Italy for instance, which has 92% Italians. And considering Croatia's economy is dumpster level, it's not really a surprise nobody wants to come here. In fact, even Croats are leaving Croatia. It has nothing to do with xenophobia towards other nations or groups.

    You still post those links from biased .rs sites. Anyway, those are individual cases from some messed up war veterans suffering from PTSD. It doesn't represent collective opinion in any way. I for instance don't support it.

    I'm 24 year old student finishing my masters degree in computer science planning to soon leave this country in search for a better future. I'm quite a liberal person and I have absolutely no problem with any ethnic or religious group. Few years ago I even invited a Serb I met online to my house. But I do (usually) have a problem with people like you who offend me on a personal level. Since you're just a random guy on the Internet, I don't really give a shit.

    @Petique
    Every side committed atrocious crimes. Just like both allies and axis forces did in WW2. Does that make them equally guilty and responsible?
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2016
  5. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    I guess it is completely pointless to argue with you on the 90's war because it is quite obvious that in your mind Serbs are solely responsible for every massacre and that croats committed no such thing because they were just peacefully and democratically protesting for their independence etc, etc...
    I didn't expect more, but thanks for confirming that even the 'liberal' Croats hate us with burning passion and think all of us are vicious murderers.


    That's literally what happened though and that IS the public opinion, at least in Vukovar. Or how do you explain that kids in elementary school have to be in seperate buildings? Because they love each other?

    Sorry to burst your bubbles but Croatia couldn't be more on axis side any more than that. You not only fought on the German's side you systematically cleansed the so called 'Independent Croatian State' of jews, gypsies, serbs, orthodox christians. Basically anyone that wasn't a Croat or a catholic was forcefully exiled at best if he was lucky or was put into a death camp or was instantly shot in the head. Most of you unfortunately supported that or how do you explain that you were waiting the German troops in Zagreb with flowers and 'Welcome' posters?
    Or how do you explain that even today many Croats want to name Alozije Stepinac, a religious fanatic of yours who supported the Ustasha terror group a SAINT!
    Also building statues of Tuđman in Klin won't make our relationships better, just saying.
    And as much as you want to make the Partizans look bad at least they didn't start ethnically cleansing Yugoslavia. Yes they were a bunch of criminals, looters, pillagers, opportunists but they fought against the Germans first and foremost and against the other occupying forces. They didn't have some idiotic racist plans about a 100% Serbian Yugoslavia or anything.
     
  6. Ety

    Ety Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Way to put words into my mouth. When I said "Serbs" I meant Serbian forces. When I said "Serbia" I meant Serbian government in the 90's, which is 100% responsible for the war. The war itself was completely unnecessary. I repeat, Croatia declared its independence by democratic votes and guess what, the Serbian government didn't like that and they responded with military action. Good thing they didn't repeat it again with Kosovo.

    Of course there are individuals who still hate each other today. In BOTH sides. But we are not talking about today here. And I (believe) there is no collective hate between two nations today.

    Vukovar is a specific story. It suffered the most from all the cities. I know it's hard for you to understand, but it's all done for precaution because some citizens of Vukovar are very, very sensitive about this topic. It's nowhere like that in other cities. I personally don't support separatism that's happening there, but I have no right to judge them for it.

    I knew your gonna take it as a literal comparison. I am no historian nor we're talking about WW2 here, but I was giving an analogy example, that when two sides fight, it doesn't mean they are equally guilty. Whether what you're talking about is true or not, it is something that happened 70 years ago. Should we all hate on Germans today for what Nazis did back then?


    No sane Croat here is proud of "Independent State of Croatia". Even the media are actively against the chants "Za Dom Spremni". If you think that every Croat shares the same opinion as few demented pricks, you have some serious stereotypical issues towards a nation. Which would make you pretty hypocritical here.
     
  7. juraculation

    juraculation Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Guess which Serb terror group performed similar acts to the Ustase, and are still quite popular in modern serbia? Funny how you don't mention them
     
  8. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    What you see is what happened, not fabricated story put in your history books to make yourselves look good.

    Croatia and Democracy aren't even on the same planet. You have a problem with Cirilic letters for the minority, and what you do ? Brake them up with hammers in 2015... Much democracy... Much civilized Europe. Fucking savages.

    We are all fully aware of made up story and propaganda created around this for achieving ethnically clean and independent Croatia. But that is far from what really happened.

    No one said its wrong, just that it didnot happened like you or history books say it happened.

    Sure, sure. Thats why Croatia in the most ethnically clean country, and Serbia has the most ethnic minorities in the region.
    The serbs slaughtered Albanians on Kosovo too. Thats why there is now only 2 million Albanians left and over 150 000 Serbs. Much slaughter.
    You are hate indoctrinated sheep and you cant even see whats right in front of your eyes.

    How mentally challenged you have to be to call biased on a site (and there is no site), for links to the pictures ? Two times ? Are pictures biased ? And then you go ahead and confirm by explaining what happened.
    And oh, its only some war veterans ? It fucking 2015, and its only a Cyrillic type of letter you dumbfuck ? Wonder what would you do to a Serb if you see him there ?

    And its only isolated case with few people ? What about this then
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTsaL17GH10 2015, official football game, Croatia - Italy. Nazi symbol in the middle of the field.

    Or this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL4du3XRil0
    Again 2015. Again official UEFA football match. Fascist salute from the whole stadium. In the middle of civilized Europe.
    Are those all war veterans on the stadium ? Is that player on the pitch a 60 year old veteran ?
    No, no, its probably biased YouTube.

    But, thankfully, the World is changing.
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/jan/14/itstimetoendserbbashing
    http://off-guardian.org/2016/03/01/...nst-yugoslavia-demonization-of-serbs-was-key/
    Less and less people are staying sheep. Even on the grand scale. You and a few other will be left alone in the dust.


    Another sheep who doesn't even know that Ustase were Fashist who served and sided with the Nazis... But he comes here to have a discussion... Dumbtard. Or maybe killing of the Nazis was bad !?
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2016
  9. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    If you refer to Chetniks, they weren't a terror group nor they had much similarity with the Ustashas. They were royalists, soldiers of the kingdom of Yugoslavia and they were fighting against Germans occasionally Partisans and mainly against the Ustashas.
    The stories about them allying themselves with the nazi Germans and the Croats are just that, stories. It's proven today that large part of those 'facts' are made up propaganda by Tito's regime.
    So please, next time do a bit of research before jumping into black/white conclusions.

    ---------- Post added at 10:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 AM ----------

    But there was no such thing as 'Serbian government'. There was only the government of Yugoslavia in which Serbs, Croats, Macedonians, Bosniaks, Montenegrins and Slovenes equally participated. Stop portraying Yugoslavia as if it was under Serbian hegemony. It was not, at least not during communist/socialist Yugoslavia.

    Then your belief is false I'm afraid. Didn't you read what I wrote? Building statues of Tuđman in Klin who forcefully exiled hundreds of thousands of Serbs or making Alozije Stepinac a saint will NOT make our relationships better. If you would stop worshipping people who systematically killed and exiled Serbs or banning cyrillic from cities that actually HAVE a serbian minority then it would be a much better start for a better future between our countries.

    This isn't an argument and doesn't disprove what I said about it earlier.

    Well I happen to study history and I happen to like WW2 as a course of study. The Germans don't get bothered by WW2 events because they have payed reperations to just about every country they have been in war with and have been supportive with the jews ever since.
    You on the other hand deny even to this day the exact number of casulties in Jasenovac, even to this deny you can't get over with the Croatian independent state and even to this day unfortunately many of you claim that Ante Pavelic and the rest of those idiots are national heroes.

    It's not stereotypics. I have been to Croatia with my family and the instant you start speaking with a Serbian dialect they will become assholes with you. They will give you that look like you are urinating in public or if they are 'nice' they just correct you.
     
  10. Ety

    Ety Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    @NaL-Ra
    I would usually report you for brutally insulting me like that, but I actually prefer it for everyone to see for themselves how sick in the brain people like you are. The world would indeed be a better place without some types of people. And you just formed a whole new type.

    @Petique
    First of all, thank you for keeping this conversation on a civilized level unlike the other guy. Second, I am not denying the actions some people do here. Thing is, they happen at both sides. A year ago Vojislav Šešelj gathered few hundred people and then proceeded to burn Croatian flag in public and threw offensive remarks towards my people and country without anyone doing shit about it. The thing that worried me is the amount of people who supported him.

    I don't care about the past or actions of individuals. They are (in most cases) prosecuted, even though the punishment is never enough when the damage is already done. But when someone today questions who the aggressor in the war was between the two countries (or states of the former Yugoslavia if you prefer), who was responsible for it and that the innocent people died because it was their own damn fault is simply disrespectful and an insult to common intelligence. I don't need the media, people with mental issues or biased history books to teach me facts.

    Some of my wording may have been harsh or misinterpreted, but when someone bashes on my country and people like that or insults me by calling me a delusional sheep and a dumbfuck it's pretty logical I would get provoked. Or as the Internet says "triggered". And I'm the good guy, trust me.
     
  11. juraculation

    juraculation Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t


    lmao GOOD LORD. Just because they were part of the army doesn't mean they weren't a fucking terror group.
    Both Chetniks and Ustashas performed ethnic cleansing, Chetniks mostly killed Croats, Bosniaks, Muslims and Partisans. Both were especially cruel, and both commited acts of terror. Denying that the Chetniks were (and are) a terrorist group is flabbergasting. The only real difference is the greater amount of resources the Ustasha had, allowing them to perform such crimes on a greater scale and better organized. Your denial of some Chetnik groups collabarating with Nazi's themselves is even funnier. Almost like you are trying to make them out to be heroes.

    Oh wait, that's exactly what most Serbs think they are. Glorification of Chetniks still occurs regularly in Serbia, and you likely think that is justified, while the Ustasa is reviled by most anyone, just as much by contemporary Croats as the other parts of former Yugoslavia. Extremely disturbing.
     
  12. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    I actually agree this time. Šešelj is a fucking schauvinistic idiot who should be put back into jail. The notion that he is free and is active in terms of politics is disturbing and terrifying for a lot of Serbians as well. He has a considerable support, mainly in less educated groups of people.
    Aggressor in terms of what? The Yugoslav army was protecting the integrity of its country, I wouldn't call that an act of aggression, any army would do the same really.
     
  13. Ety

    Ety Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    A nation has the right to proclaim independence if its people vote for it. It's called democracy and it has been happening for hundreds of years. It's not like a few rebellious groups gathered weapons and said "fuck it, let's take this territory for our own". It didn't happen by force. The whole nation wanted independence because the political, cultural, religious and economic differences were huge and sense of inferiority-superiority between two nations from Belgrade's point of view made it unbearable for Croatian people to live normally. When you look at economic, cultural and political state of Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia today, do you really think things would function normally if Yugoslavia still existed?

    I can't believe you actually think that a military response to actions proceeded by a certain ethnicity given by their democratic right is justified and the only logical solution. Even Belgrade was against any form of military action when Kosovo proclaimed independence.
     
  14. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    I am not interested in fabricated stories that were made up by the socialist regime. Chetniks did commit war crimes and they did kill muslims but the numbers are largely overexaggerated and they didn't colleborate with the nazis. That is Tito's propaganda to make the royalists look as bad as possible.

    ---------- Post added at 01:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 PM ----------

    Do you think nowaday's ex-yugoslav countries function normally? Yugoslavia was a great and prosperous country and now what do we have? 6 banana states, jokes that no one takes seriously, but I digress.
    If it was so worth it to you and if it is so much better today, you've got what you wanted now and I hope you are happy with it.
     
  15. Ety

    Ety Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    I wasn't born when Yugoslavia existed so I can't personally compare the lifestyle today and back then. I can't say I'm happy with how things are going today and that's why I plan to leave this country soon. But that's a matter of corrupted government incompetent to run a country with few million people, which is an another story. It has nothing to do with breakup of Yugoslavia.
     
  16. Arcana_Arcanus

    Arcana_Arcanus Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Yugoslavia was stillborn since its inception in 1918. It is evident by the sheer number of attempts to try and make it work, and each and every time it split asunder and fell rapidly as soon as the tension-holding pressure was relieved.

    The united balkan state cannot exist. One time its an ever-escaping dream, other time an outright nonsense. Neither the will of the Great Powers, the arming boot of an occupation, nor the steel fist of a determined dictator and imperial dreams of serbs can make this Frankenstein monstrosity alive.

    It is theoretically possible and proven more than once that a whole Balkan castle can make more impact, provided all the other variables are suppressed. But the idea cannot cling on that alone. The ethnicity card was far too strong. The dream of a self-determination, the ridiculously strong religious and cultural differences and allegiances, the memory of an unending hatred and everlasting bloodshed - that all could never be shadowed by the "dream" of Yugoslavia. And at last, how many people stood in the end at the defence of the crumbling state, not as serbs trying to keep their violent dominance over other balkan slavs, but as Yugoslavians clinging to that dream? Far not enough, we see.
     
  17. Sarvik

    Sarvik Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    CIA is just a convenient boogieman. Internally strong countries don't descend into civil wars. Yugoslavia was built on sand from start, pretty ironic considering that it incorporated lots of territories of another failed multi-national state - Austria-Hungary.
     
  18. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    [YOUTUBE]watch?v=Q_oQFplWs_g[/YOUTUBE]

    First comment is pure gold.
    Links in descriptions also worth a look.
     
  19. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    Intriguing... I will probably watch this series, even if they might not be based on absolute historical facts, because you know every time something gets in the cinemas it will be altered.
     
  20. NaL-Ra

    NaL-Ra Well-Known Member

    Re: CIA agent says Yugoslavia was dismemebred by t

    I think its a documentary movie (banned from some film festivals) not a series and its already available on YouTube.

    I didn't post it since I only wanted to shatter the illusions of some propaganda indoctrinated sheep about Yugoslavia as being something weak, doomed from the start or "build on sand" whatever the fuck that means.