Building Medusa

Discussion in 'Game Strategy' started by DoM, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Well-Known Member

    She does not need really need damage items for early fights. Snake + Gaze is pretty much like Tornado+EMP, deals respectable damage and mana drain without any items. And it sustains yourself as long as you hit units with mana. You are right that bfury is best for splitshot boosting (since MKB does not give high direct damage anymore), but there's litle reason to care about split shot when you can just have Mjol which is so strong with tanky Medusa.

    lightnings are magical damage, which is not reduced by armor and not prevented by ghost scepter. scaleable magical DPS is something very important in late game, since BKBs are short and heroes magic resistance is way lower then physical. also, Split Shot does nothing if Medusa is
    permabshed by Troll/Void, while Mjol sparkles at least kill everything around them

    MoM/BKB/Deadulus Medusa strugles against 50 armor Timber/Axe as they take near 0 damage but still reflect a lot. Linkens/Mjol Medusa at least can deal tons of damage before dieing.

    the point of Linkens is sustain and countering Euls scepter that shits on Mjolnir. bkb is not slot efficient for dusa, but i agree that it's needed agains mana fags
     
  2. BornFromAGrave

    BornFromAGrave Well-Known Member

    Beside that Dusa can take more dmg then Timber and Axe. And Mjol dosnt deal "tons of dmg" if you are not Alch or Drow.
     
  3. AvrilLabigne

    AvrilLabigne Well-Known Member

    Well, two is better than one and BF is the best damage boosting on the game.

    4k gold for +60 damage and extra creep damage.
     
  4. GoD_Tyr

    GoD_Tyr Well-Known Member

    The real problem with Mjolnir/Mael is that stoned heroes gain 100% immunity to magic aka Lightning proc.

    I think that she needs a reasonable buff, lets say nice Aghanim addition for her ultimate. Gorgon seems like a pretty sterile hero right now and is too much item-dependent to stay relevant in any serious game. Or that, or an another skill remake - like remaking her split shot into something creative and useful before lategame.
     
  5. Vixori

    Vixori Well-Known Member

    People suggesting Bfury? I feel like I went half circle.

    I also though that Bfury could be an option, but then I discovered the most amazing thing - Medusa doesn't actually need MP regen that much. Especially after snake buffs, now you can just shoot snake in the jungle and get +500 mana for free.

    And if you don't need MP regen, then why bother with Bfury in the first place?

    Anyway, Medusa is a shitty hero by herself, there is no build that would magically fix her (rapier rush into aegis into 5 mana push comes close). So far her biggest accomplishment is drawing attention of the enemy team to focus her first, which is a horrible idea.
     
  6. Lmaotan

    Lmaotan Well-Known Member

    arcane boots -> soulring -> bloodstone -> phase boots -> mom -> molljnir -> bkb

    last slot could be butterfly / mkb / refresher , depending on whether you need evasion, or to counter evasion , or just need the double bkb + double gaze to win fights
     
  7. MrMackey

    MrMackey Well-Known Member

    this shit build keeps getting thrown around for some reason, of course never alongside the dotabuff page of a 5k+ player who actually does well with it.

    the only thing that bloodstone offers is slowsiege against a team with good poke ablities, at which point just get a surprise blink and shitfuck those kids back to the stone age.
     
  8. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Well-Known Member

    the wasted lightning procs aren't much concern in reality, since the downtime of stonegaze is huge while lightnings are always up

    i think the hate towards Linkens - Mjolnir build largly comes from people still being under impression of broken mechanics that were plaguing these items for too long. shitty wc3 lightning never worked as intended, dota2 improved it but introduced a new bug of lightnings not being able to get off if lightning is already pouncing. same story with Linkens. people say "Linkens is a relic of 6.50 dusa with Chain Lightning, but now it's outdated", but i fail to understand the reasoning behind this. in fact, besides fixed mechanics, the item literally had the hell buffed of it since then.

    it's outdated claniraq's build. and it does way more then slowpoke sieging...
     
  9. BornFromAGrave

    BornFromAGrave Well-Known Member

    I dont like it that much because Snake is basicly a spell without manacost. So manaregen is barely needed and you better go of with somemManapool.
     
  10. AvrilLabigne

    AvrilLabigne Well-Known Member

    But why would you build Mjollnir instead of Battlefury? Both will boost you even but BF is way cheaper.

    Mjollnir: Lighning for extra farming.
    Battlefury: +55 damage, +25% damage on creeps means 0.8*1.25=1. It nulifies Split Shot penalty.

    Medusa is also agility which means large amount of IAS aren't as useful as bonus damage.
     
  11. RollingWave

    RollingWave Well-Known Member

    See, there is a conflicting problem with Medusa

    1. her base attack speed is terrible especially with the animation, without some sort of AS boosting items it's going to take a LONG time before she actually hits at the speed of an agility hero. this is why a lot of suggestion of thing like MOM and maelstrom comes in play.

    2. HOWEVER, everyone that plays her for awhile realize you almost have to go phase without any if but maybes because that's just how bad her movement speed is as well, not to mention her base damage.

    3. Maelstrom adds AS which she actually needs, the problem is if you go phase boot your AS will be too low for the proc based maelstrom's damage to really shine. until later when the magic damage's usefulness becomes highly dubious. the nature of her split shot makes proc % based item not tied to base damage more attractive because it doesn't get reduced as much.

    There is actually another usefulness aspect to Maelstrom in that in conjunction with splitshot your likely to clear out the creeps faster in a fight which means both the bounce and the split are likely to actually hit heroes instead of creeps.

    Maelstrom would be really really good on her if weren't for the fact that she has to go phase boot and has a terrible initial attack speed.

    4. The part people miss on why Medusa player goes Manta is not because as much of the illusion as the YASHA. because YASHA is by far the most logical item for Medusa as the only item that both adds damage / attack speed / move speed for her (other than drum, which I actually advocate as an item she really should go for.) the point on getting Manta is because you need the Yasha and going Manta makes more sense than going S&Y on her.

    5. MOM actually makes some sense for her except that it's an item that scales horribly. the problem is your never going to be able to make her a true hard hitter in the early phase unless you are so so far away better than your opponent (in which case almost anything works anyway.) your going to be aiming towards the later game anyway and that's where MOM's problem comes. it scales even worse than Maelstorm for all intent and purpose.

    Although she is tankier than other AGI range heroes her only escape move is a long CD 200 mana ultimate that may or may not work. and really her relative tankiness is overstated, people do realize that without shield on she has a lower EHP than Sniper right? unless you invest heavily into adding mana and mana regen (in which case your horrible hitting potential becomes even more obvious.)

    The tanking attribute also takes away from her other aspects like you know, having any sort of damage increasing moves. snake is not the most reliable move and your throwing away mana that could be used for tanking that may not come back in time to actually help you (that is assuming your getting more mana back.)

    Having said that, she's somewhat of a safe pick in pubs if opposing teams don't have a counter hero if only because she's not as much at risk of strait up ganks and most pubs tend to drag on long enough that give her a chance to get to the point where she actually gets enough items. but that makes her what? a less overall useful version but ranged Wraith King?
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2016
  12. Lmaotan

    Lmaotan Well-Known Member

    What makes mana shield any good at all is that it double dips on items that provide HP/mana and HP/mana regeneration, letting them both provide EHP. And since the ratio of mana::hp is so favorable, and it costs less to get mana/mana regen than hp, a bloodstone acts like a heart that isn't disabled by damage.

    other bonuses are due to the nature of the hero, being easy to gain charges because medusa shouldn't be one of the first to die in battles. Also, in the case that you ACTUALLY die, the faster respawn mechanic might save you the game or potentially save you a buyback, which is pretty neat but not the whole point of bloodstone.

    MOM is the next logical choice to boost dps/farming, because the extra damage taken only applies to the 40% that goes to hp, not the damage to mana. Say you have 50% physical damage reduction from armor. Without MoM, a 1000 damage crit would make you lose 200 hp and 240 mana. With MoM on, you lose 260 hp and 240 mana. This is why MoM is particularly good on medusa. The other mechanic that really benefits is damage block, ie stout/pms/vanguard/crimson, which occurs before all other reductions on most heroes, but after mana shield, so if an ally *HAPPENS* to give you crimson guards buff, you take 0 hp lost from a 125 damage attack.

    phase boots over treads because of the important mechanic of being able to phase and run over a hero after casting gaze, ensuring that you stone him. Plus we have plenty of attack speed in this build, raw damage is what we need.

    i've seen alot of misunderstanding in this thread, most of you guys seem to think that molj is purchased on medusa entirely for chain lighting and attack speed, which is not true. A large part of your damage from this build is coming from static charge active from molj, which is important for a hero like medusa.

    most of the time after all these 4 items, bkb is the next logical choice, especially against mana burn. when facing a problematic counter like anti mage, bkb doesnt only JUST prevent anti mage from casting his ulti on you, it also prevents your mana from being burnt in the first place.

    there are obvious flaws with the hero, this is not uncommon knowledge, i stopped playing the hero when they changed abyssal to what it is now. It used to be a good item on medusa because it provided 100 raw damage, which is the highest out of all items (except rapier), and has a stun which is handy for anyone trying to gap close on you. Ending off the build with refresher for double abyssal + stone gaze + 2 bkbs felt really good.

    i suppose if the opponent keeps purging away static charge with euls or diffusal, which are common items nowadays, butterfly would be better.
     
  13. Cesaille

    Cesaille Member

    From a solo queue perspective she is absolutely awful imo. No damage, no reliable CC, no truly good item synergy, cannot farm effectively without questionable items and have no powerpeaks outside of a goddamn rapier. Rapier is a gamble and not easy to farm, especially not with the current state of the game (clusterfuck from min 8 and forward). Something that is not likely to change since the way they're molding the game is clearly deliberate (rubberband, assist gold/experience, farm nerfs and so on).
     
  14. GoD_Tyr

    GoD_Tyr Well-Known Member

    Her main problem is lack of basic damage. She is thirsty of items, and without them (and right proper item build) she is more-less trash. This meta is so dynamic that having a hero farm for 20 minutes without any significant team presence will certainly not end in your favor.
    I think that she needs her early-mid game presence buff rather than making her just a tanky farmer made for lategame (and even then she can fail).
     
  15. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Well-Known Member

    yeah, i guess BF is good if you are free-farming, especially farming ancients. but Mjolnir build aims to maximize her teamfight presence, since Static Charge deals so much AoE damage regardless of disables. Medusa being agility hero should not be a consideration to reject IAS items. she has neither good damage nor AS innately, you can get both without wasting any efficiency.
    Yasha is just not slot-efficient. It's not enough DPS to occupy slot in late game, and minor MS boost is not very useful too. In fact, you can better spend that money towards Bfly.

    so if you bring phased Medusa onto someone, it will stone him no matter the facing?

    she can in fact contribute to early fights. snake+gaze is pretty effective as long as you have some setup. what kills her is atrocious starting stats. it's absolutely unfair because her spells are weak at early levels too. you can't put Medusa in solo lane because she dies so easily to early ganks
     
  16. AvrilLabigne

    AvrilLabigne Well-Known Member

    Agility heroes will always end up the game with ez to catch 200 IAS. Further than it you're simply trading 0.56 attack for 0.42, 33% damage increase.

    Obviouly for agility heroes purchasing raw agility or damage is superior.

    If you want damage, buy Butterfly.

    Same goes for heroes with attack speed spells; agility or attack speed are inferior to Daedalus.

    N'aix, Ogre, Alche, Legion..

    And then there's Kunkka.

    :cat:

    The point about Medusa is she need strenght, she need agi, she need int and the only item that grant it is Skady. But EoS is not enough as you'll be forced to buy MKB, and first Battlefury so she can farm and fight anyone.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2016
  17. BornFromAGrave

    BornFromAGrave Well-Known Member

    1. a: I dont know what you are talking about. Her Base Attack Time is avarage. Her agi-gain aswell. If you are talking about her attackspeed on level 1 i cant say that it feels like she is attacking much slower or faster then most heroes. Her attackpoint is in the lower half, true. But its not on Drow or Lina level.

      b: MoM is not suggested because of the IAS only. Its because of everything that is provided by MoM and since Manashield works very well together with the dmg amp (someone did a great threat about it where he calculated the interaction between these two, but cant find it). Its just awesome costefficent on her.

    2. Agree, they are usually better but Treads can be still veryuseful. However with the increased manadrain on snakes Phase are more direable

    3. a: There are many other ways to gain AS, eg. Moonshard

      b: The nature of Splittshot makes items that provide damage more disireble as they get spread over all targets. As i calculated already before the dmg-gain per attack from lightning-procs is very low copared to raw dmg. Also, raw damage also helps to clear waves faster and you can leech from it. On top of that, raw damage is more reliable since you dont have to wait for procs. Oh and it gets increased when your ultimate turns your enemies to stone where magic dmg gets reduced to 0. So there are many reasons why Mael/Mjol shouldnt be bought on her.

    4. This is completly stupid as i already said. If you want Yasha then buy it. But dont upgrade it immediately. Dusa has almost no HP and Illusions dont get Manashield so they die way to fast and the dmg they deal laughtable. And later you are better of selling Yasha and get another dmg-item.

    5. a: Can also be sold later, but its still very very cost efficent beside it helps to farm aswell as beeing able to take some fights early.
      b: pls pls pls dont count her ulti as an escape...
      c: you throw mana and get more back
      d: she is still one of the hardes carries in super lategame since she outclasses every other hero that deals about the same dmg as her in tankieness and vice versa. So she is a little bit like Spec, but more AoE focussed.

    She is also the hero who can make the most out of items while also having farmabilities. Giving her more early presence then she already got (Snake is a pain in the ass to lane aganist like old Curse of the Silent)
     
  18. Ninjerk

    Ninjerk Well-Known Member

    No, but you don't have to walk around the enemy player's model, friendly heroes, creeps, etc.
     
  19. JDF8

    JDF8 Well-Known Member

    AKA: how to attack once per second for the entire game
     
  20. AvrilLabigne

    AvrilLabigne Well-Known Member

    At level 25 is 450 DPs.