Brexit

Discussion in 'World News & Debates' started by SkyforgerXVIII, Jun 24, 2016.

  1. Rickaby

    Rickaby Well-Known Member

  2. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    Also I would like to add something here, protesting against a referendum result is not the same as protesting in general, because you are essentially protesting against the will of the people. They are protesting against the most democratic aspect of modern, western secularism.
    People usually protest against government decisions, not against direct democracy. And to what effect anyway?
    Sorry,there is no milder way to put it, but if someone supports a second referendum then those are against democracy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2016
  3. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    Less than 20 seconds to fulfill Godwin's law? That must be some kind of new Youtube record right there.

    Jokes aside, comparing the average fanatic protester to the Nazi youth is genuinely amusing. It's hard to take his initial comments seriously when he tries to back up his view by literally invoking Hitler.

    As I've said, protesters for the sake of it and nasty attitudes online are obviously bad, but a) mean internet comments are nothing new or noteworthy and the fact millenials adhere to it more mainly comes from the fact that they actually know how to use the technology in much higher ratios than older people and b) as Mognakor said, it's someone's fully democratic right to protest against a policy that he deems bad.

    Also, I don't get the argument "since when are these [enter group here] pro-establishment". It's about making a sensible choice and the implications of either of those choices. You can support any of the 2 without adhering to the proposing side's or the opposing side's political agenda. It's a forced dichotomy of "leftists support this, conservatives support that" which isn't true, but can become true via repetition.

    Overall, same as the Sargon video: Bad generalizations about the youth and arguing ad hominem.
     
  4. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    I mean you do that too quite often tbh. Like when you started comparing Hungarian PM Viktor Orban to Hitler just because he dared to make a fence around Hungary (every other neighboring country did that btw, just a bit later) and on the sheer basis that he is popular among his people.
    True, but the pro remain supporters aren't better either who are calling Brexiters fascists and nazis, when in fact the very old people who are being criticized now have fought or at least supported the fight against fascism and nazism.
    I have already made my statement above. Of course, you can protest and demonstrate all you want but it is controversial and simply non-productive. They should have thought about the importance of this referendum before and should have went out to vote, not cry on the internet.
    I am on the side of none, I have no benefit of supporting any group here. Both sides are at fault, but let me counter-ask another quesetion. Can we agree that a second referendum would be completely anti-democratic and the remain supporters should try to accept the results instead?

    You can make generalizations when thousands of people show up shouting the same rhetoric. Not to the whole remain supporters but to the young remain voters, I'd say yes.
     
  5. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    Not at all.

    What I did was to refute the argument that a leader being popular equals to being good. I never implied Orban is even remotely comparable to Hitler other than holding the highest office attainable in their respective governments.

    It's not just old people and it'd be wrong not to admit that there are racists in the pro-Brexit side. Both sides have bad attitudes and really bad arguments and yes, even racists, but it's preferable to ignore any of those voices rather than pretending they are the actual representatives of either side.

    It doesn't matter. It's their choice and while criticism is valid, trying to discredit them on the basis of just protesting in general nullifies the cry for pro-democracy that this guy is supposedly propagating.

    I deleted that part of my post for this reason (plus the possibility of a non sequitur). Let's not create more dichotomy since obviously the majority of either side doesn't cause any problems whatsoever.

    If a second referendum happened because the majority voted for it to happen, then it would be democratic. That's why democracy can be so easily abused when you leave really important decisions to the masses.

    However, yes, everyone should accept the result and go on. They can protest it as much as they like, but demanding a second referendum against the majority is just unfeasible.


    But that's factually incorrect. Protesting against the Brexit results doesn't mean the crowd is homogeneous and consisted of just people who draw swastikas on "Leave" promotional posters. That's false equivalency. Or the fact he showed one clip from the protests of a woman who happens to have no idea about the EU. It's dangerous to make generalizations when the overall vote was very much binary yet the voter base is a whole spectrum of political opinions.
     
  6. MWaser

    MWaser Well-Known Member

    I definitely think that people should have a right to demand a second referendum. Which people, though? Well, the ones that voted Leave. Those who voted "Remain" and demand a second referendum are simply putting their opinion on the matter above the opinion of their opposition, if they believe they should just keep redoing the referendum until "their side" wins. However, the people who voted Leave, only to learn that the authorities lied to them with the many promises of what Brexit would accomplish should have a right to demand a second chance, and if you saw that enough people had been disillusioned right after voting, a second referendum would be more justified.

    But of course we cannot do THAT, as the referendum votes were anonymous.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2016
  7. Petique

    Petique Well-Known Member

    I agree with everything you said actually. Generalizations should be avoided, but let's be real literally every politician/movement leader and their supporters do that one way or the other because that is how they address the opposing group. Fortunately or unfortunately that is how these protests work.
    It will be hard to stabilize the UK after this, especially in terms of politics but also in terms of economics. The problem is that there is no strong leadership, Boris Johnson just denied to be the PM. It might be Michael Gove but I haven't heard too many good things about the guy.
     
  8. yaolin

    yaolin Well-Known Member

    NOthing is ever forgotten. Just because you dont hear or see it, doesnt mean it's not being debated. all the events happened in the 21st century are shown as documentary, e.g. USA's middle east invasion after 9.11(which is also shown as documentary), the bank crisis(to big to fail)etc. You have to watch news or news programmes and not stupid facebook shit for it is dumb shit worth.

    ANd I sometimes watch this documentaries with new info and new point of view but of course never know how much truth is told but there is always a little truth findable
     
  9. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    Nigel Farage, leader of the euroskeptic UKIP political party and one of the main campaigners for Brexit has announced his resignation as leader of the party:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/04/nigel-farage-resigns-as-ukip-leader

    In other words, a driven man with vapid ambitions to get the UK out of the EU finally manages to do so, and it turns out that was his sole purpose in the political scene without any real interest in leading the country or doing the dirty work left behind from the end results.

    I wonder how anyone is still supporting this guy or his party, given not only his attitude against his peers in the European parliament (where he essentially mocked them for the results and implied that no one in there ever had a "proper job" in their lives), but also his moral stance towards the UK government and people.
    He came in, whined about his woes for 20 years, circumstances be it he succeeded and then gives everyone the middle finger and walks away.
     
  10. Rickaby

    Rickaby Well-Known Member

    This is pretty weak for a right wing party. Usually they continue to go with the flow once they throw their country into the gutter.

    So, will he also resign from the EU parliament? Or will he continue to suck fat salaries out of it for absolutely no reason?
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2016
  11. kildat017

    kildat017 Well-Known Member

  12. Rickaby

    Rickaby Well-Known Member

    It's more like "read the article past the title your brainwashed, low-attention span gibbon". The referendum is for the migrant quota.

    Again, this is why democracy is a bad idea as it is. You have people who easily get tricked by the media. The most exploited resource by politicians is human stupidity, and with democracy that resource is very rich.

    P.S: reminder that the British press is less valuable than toilet paper. Murdoch's death will be a reason for worldwide celebration.
     
  13. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator

    It's logical that he will probably leave the EU parliament as well, but not that this matters in the long term, given he managed to remove everyone else of his compatriots from there.
     
  14. Z01d

    Z01d Well-Known Member

    AFAIK, he want's to stay in the EU parliament. Gotta feed his children somehow :cat:
     
  15. GoD_Tyr

    GoD_Tyr Well-Known Member

    SO in the end the British people can be very proud of their crooked politicians, they successfully manipulated more than 50% of populace and turn them against EU and later resigned from their leading positions.

    Like they had any issues with EU.
     
  16. kildat017

    kildat017 Well-Known Member

    >somehow it's my fault the headlines is misleading
    >implying it's not intentional of them


    really makes you think
     
  17. Eli_Green

    Eli_Green Well-Known Member

    You are just as liable for not reading tbe damn thing as they are for having sensational headlines. It takes two to tango.
     
  18. LePillow

    LePillow Active Member

    Far from me the intention to derail this thread but with today's report on Tony Blair's responsibility on UK war in Iraq it seems democracy over there really goes along with lies. Many will argue it's the same in all democracies, what I mean here is the level of the consequences and how many people were, are or will be affected. Is that the kind of democracy those who are celebrating the vote really want?

    Lie to obtain Brexit, lie to invade Iraq and in both cases people who supported the winning camp don't want to deal with the consequences.
     
  19. abdo1234

    abdo1234 Well-Known Member

  20. LyraH

    LyraH Well-Known Member

    Well it's quite interesting reading this thread as a non-european.

    I'm all for the ban of democracy on those decisions, i know my country has a high chance to elect a religious fanatic guy and the population itself barely has an education. That said, brittish people decided to vote leave and they'll have to deal with the consequences later, this sounds harsh for the brits reading this that voted to remain, but oh well.

    I'm all for a reforming or removing of the EU tho, allowing literally anyone to enter a country, even when those people come from a culture where it's common to marry a 9 years old. But that's just me.