[Aghanim's Scepter] Ogre Magi

Discussion in 'Remakes' started by Klein~, Oct 21, 2010.

  1. Klein~

    Klein~ Active Member

    Ogre magi needs fireblast whole game, and mostly on mid/late. By the way, even getting 4x multicast isn't enough in my opinion. It does a big damage when hits 4x, but it could be better once Aggron is one of the heroes "heaven or hell" in the game. It's hard to hit multicast always, and right, it must be hard. After all, it does needs a upgrade by Aghanim's Scepter. I thought that it could be fair if before add more % on multicast or even more multicast, it add damage per multicast:

    Let's say I hit 2x multicast with ultimate level 3 and fireblast level 4.
    The damage will be 550.
    It's ofc a nice damage for only 2x multicast, but on late game it doesn't even help if you get 2 or 3 multicast.
    I'm up to suggest a Aghanim upgrade by doing the same thing as Aggron is in the game, the "heaven or hell". So it could be:

    With Aghanim:
    Normal cast: 285.
    2x multicast: frist cast doing 285 damage, second doing 310 = 585
    3x multicast: the same as up but in the order: 285, 310 and 360 = 955
    4x multicast: 285, 310, 360, 460 = 1415:nuke:

    Without Aghanim:
    Normal cast: 275
    2x: 550
    3x: 825
    4x: 1100

    The order of upgrade in damage that I used was:

    1x = 10
    2x = 10 + 25
    3x = 10 + (25 * 2)
    4x = 10 + (25 * 4)

    About ignate I would say: add more damage. I really don't mind about ignate and if my suggest is good I prefer let someone else think on it for me.

    About Bloodlust: 100% chance to multicast 2x and upgrade multicast % on 3x and 4x.

  2. arbie44

    arbie44 Member

    much better if the % of x2 x3 x4 will increase when he use aghanims?
  3. Quiesce

    Quiesce Well-Known Member

    it's not hard to hit multicast.

    it's luck...
  4. dsbn

    dsbn Well-Known Member

    This. Anyways, t-null since I'm not sure if its better to increase the % or the damage.
  5. Lithary

    Lithary Well-Known Member

    Why not just make it x3/x4/x5 and that it reduces Ignite's cooldown by 5 seconds with AS upgrade?
    It's simpler to do it, more effective and more logical.
  6. Klein~

    Klein~ Active Member

    Ofc the more % you have, better it is... The damage increased won't do more stun.

    You have only one try per 8 seconds, and the multicast isn't something that you can trust whole game, so it's hard to aim it...

    I thought on decrease fireblast cooldown so it could work as more %, since it stuns for 1.5 seconds only, and not like hellfire blast which stuns and slow and damage hard for each 8 seconds... Making it 4 seconds cooldown at level 3 ultimate is a nice option too imo, and add 10 mana cost followed by 30 per multicast.

    About x3/x4/x5: aren't really what Ogre Magi needs in my opinion, because:
    1) no x2? it means the chance for x3, x4 and x5 will be increased.
    2) x5 is too much stun.
  7. Lithary

    Lithary Well-Known Member

    The interval between Fireblasts is 0.3 seconds, so we are talking only 0.3 seconds of extra stun.
    Also, I didn't understand what you mean under your reason no. 1.
    Anyway, this is how his ultimate should look like:

    Multi Cast:


    Enables the Ogre Magi to rapidly cast his spells, giving them greater potency. Gives a chance to cast a spell multiple times in one cast. Reduces Fire Blast's cooldown by 2 seconds per level, reduces Bloodlust's cooldown by 5 seconds per level and Increases Ignite's area of effect by 150 per level. Also decrease Ignite's cooldown by 5 seconds.*

    Level 1 - 30% chance to cast 2 (3*) times.

    Level 2 - 40% chance to cast 2 (3*) times, 20% chance to cast 3 (4*) times.

    Level 3 - 50% chance to cast 2 (3*) times, 25% chance to cast 3 (4*) times, and 12.5% chance to cast 4 (5*) times.

    - Can be improved by Aghanim's Scepter (* shows the improved values).
    - Everything I didn't mention stays says as it was.

    I've also improved level 1 Multi Cast by 5% since 25 is just sad in my opinion this way scaling is better.
    It's simple to make, it's effective, still balanced and worth your 4.2K golds worth that you need to buy for AS.
  8. Klein~

    Klein~ Active Member

    I mean that fireblast cannot doublecast anymore, just x3/x4/x5, so it means the % of x3/x4/x5 will be increased. It's not balanced imo, too much % on x3/x4/x5... I'm not sure but aghanim was almost like you said, I think the DotA version was 6.59:
    50% chance to cast twice, 25% chance to cast three times, 12.5% chance to cast 4 times and 6% chance to cast 5 times.

    It's totally fail if ou have a chance of 12,5% chance to cast 5x.

    Obs: I vouch you about 5% more on level 1 multicast.
  9. Lithary

    Lithary Well-Known Member

    I don't understand the bold part.
    I mean, I don't get the problem of not being able to double-cast it?
    All % are going to stay the same.
    Anyway, I don't think that it will be imbalanced, really.
    I mean, you need to buy AS witch costs 4.2K gold and is made from 4 items (making it is pain in the ass and ungrateful) and be level 16 in order to gain 12.5% chance to cast your Fireblast.
    That's not that imba in my opinion.
    Not to mention that bonuses that AS gives are not that awesome for it's price and that there are other items that OM could use his gold to buy instead of AS and would benefit way more from it's bonuses.
    Still, when it comes to damage, your level 3 ultimate actually does more damage than 5x cast so if mine idea is imba, then your is even more imba. :p
  10. Klein~

    Klein~ Active Member

    As you tiped: "Level 3 - 50% chance to cast 2 (3*) times, 25% chance to cast 3 (4*) times, and 12.5% chance to cast 4 (5*) times."

    2x - ???
    3x - 50%
    4x - 25%
    5x - 12.5%

    I see what is your goal. But many heroes has a Aghanim upgrade, but it's both viable to use or not, a exemple: Barathrum. At all, gives more % or adding damage+ works about the same, but the chances to get more damage by my suggestion is when you are lucky and strikes x4 as usual, and your idea is supose to give a greater % on multicast for x3/x4/x5, which does much more damage in terms of cost/benefits.

    Let's say:

    Ogre magi casts 3 times fireblast with level 3 ultimate and level 4 skill:

    My suggestion:

    Let's say I got respectivly 2x/3x/4x:
    2x - 585
    3x - 955
    4x - 1415
    Which is in total: 2985
    The chance to this happen is: 1.56%

    Your suggestion:

    Same as before: x3/x4/x5
    x3 - 825
    x4 - 1100
    x5 - 1275
    Which is a total of: 3200
    Chance to this happen: 1.56%

    Ok, but what does it mean?
    In terms of %, you do 215 DAMAGE MORE and in a BETTER CHANCE TO MULTICAST. It's ofc more damage and more % on cast. Since you add x5 it should be 12,5/2 = 6% ( old aghanim ).
  11. Corest

    Corest Well-Known Member

    I hate f'ing ogre and his "luck" playing style... it's just plain stupid getting owned by someone that doesn't even know what he's doing
    now you wanna increase the 12% chance (which for me its more like 50% cos i get hit 4 times every goddamn time) to hit 4 times to 5 times?! that kills most of dota heroes mid game.
  12. Monsterlord

    Monsterlord Banned

    Ogre's a hero that will get assraped every time if you don't know what you're doing. He requires too much mana management and can be too easily gimped early on for newer players to work him well. If an Ogre is beating you, it's because he's good.

    For the rest of the topic, idk if op's just firing off ideas without thinking or what >_>
  13. Lithary

    Lithary Well-Known Member

    Yea, I can see your point (was a bit sleepy yesterday).
    All in all, mine suggestion is a bit stronger (0.9 seconds more stun on those 3 Fireblasts and 215 damage more on those 3 Fireblasts).
    But the thing is that your idea is simply too complicated and that difference in the end will not be that great.
    Actually, only main difference here is that I also think that AS upgrade should give OM 5 seconds cooldown reduction on Ignite and that's it (AS should give some kind of upgrade to all of his skills and adding just additional AOE to Ignite is kinda pointless).
  14. 4d4m3k

    4d4m3k Well-Known Member

    You will get assraped even if you know what you're doing but no multicast at all (or multifail like TBS told in his portfolio :smiling:). If Ogre is really beating you, it's beacause he has enough luck to rape whole team by perma 4-cast (and skilled, but overall luck>skills, not talknig about epic noobs)
  15. Klein~

    Klein~ Active Member

    I do like your idea because I like to play ogre, but in my opinion, your suggestion is overpowering him after all... Ogre had AS but it was token off just because it gave x5 at 6%...
  16. Klein~

    Klein~ Active Member

    Complicated or not, the main thing we should look is at balance of game. If you are lucky enough to hit x4 it's nice but if you have AS and still got luck it's even better, at all both if you got AS or not it'll be almost the same (275 -> 285 for a normal cast, only 10 dmg +). The diference on our ideas is exacly taking off the x5 and adding dmg to hit almost x5 when you hit x4. It's like how the hero works, howmuch lucky u are, howmuch dmg you do.
    I don't think my idea is that complicated to do because it's just add damage.
  17. Lithary

    Lithary Well-Known Member

    It's complicated how it adds damage.
    Also, scaling is not proper.
    While your x4 is almost strong as x5, x2 lacks waaay behind x3.
    Also, remember that AS bonuses are pretty shitty for it's price and especially in OM case.
    He is slow, has low intelligence (witch is major drawback since he is suppose to be spam-type spellcaster) and is melee hero.
    True that he has large amount of strength, but it won't help him that much if he doesn't get some nice items to boost him.
  18. SpiderPig

    SpiderPig Banned

  19. Klein~

    Klein~ Active Member

    What I plan to give him is a 12,5% to cast a almost x5 multicast, it's nice...
    Even if x2 or x3 will do less damage bonus than x4, they still fair, since ogre magi is a lucky char.
    Although you don't think worth buy AS, I do think it worth. It's a 12,5% to cast almost same as x5... It's nice for ogre.
    Even hard to create, it's better than don't make a upgrade balanced for him.
  20. Lithary

    Lithary Well-Known Member

    Still, difference between x2 and x4 is too large in your case.
    It's like having a Critical Strike ability that has chance to multiply damage by x2/x3.25/x5, or in this case I think that same number could be applied to your version of Multi Cast.
    It's simply doesn't scale well.
    At least that's how I see it.
    Also, your upgrade doesn't fit OM that much and I don't see logic behind it.
    It's just a chance to cast spell more times at once, not to amplify it witch each cast.
    Why make it more complicated than it is?
    I just see this as lot of complications, while it can be done in a much simpler way and still keep it balanced (and in my opinion even more balanced than your suggestion).